Strawberries
Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 14:46
Dear All,
I got a painful PCN from PCM for parking in a wrong bay.
It's one of the bays in the area rarely used in my residential development.
The driver should have driven round the front but came round the back, feeling unwell had forgotten the back gate was locked and parked in one of the bays as the area is hardly used and it's right infront of my door. The would've been at my bay in 5mins and walked back in 2mins
I'll be most grateful for assistance to appeal successfully please.
£60 is an amount I cannot afford at this time.
Please see attached notice.
Thank you.
ostell
Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 15:14
First edit you post to remove any indication of who was driving.
Next get out your lease to see what it says about parking. There may be no requirement to display a permit.
You can either:
- Appeal as the keeper just before the 28 days is up and deny liability. This saves them money by not having to contact the DVLA to get the keepers details and then they forget to send a notice to keeper. Without a notice to keeper they can only go after the driver who they do not know.
- Wait for the Notice To Keeper to arrive after day 28 and before day 56. Then appeal that on the errors in the NTK that means they can not hold the keeper liable and therfore can only chase the driver, who they do not know.
Strawberries
Thu, 14 Jul 2016 - 13:53
Thanks Ostell.
I'm sending this on the 27th day.
I hope it fits in.
1st APPEAL TO PCM
Date
Dear PCM
Re PCN number:
I am not ignoring your charge for a purported parking infraction. As this is purely a charge, issued under an alleged contract and the driver has not been identified, I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:
1. Who is the party that contracted with your company? I require their contact details.
2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
3. As you are not the landowner please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that you have their authority.
4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract please provide your justification of this sum.
6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? Answer yes or no.
7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please provide a valid VAT invoice for this 'service'.
8. Please provide a copy of the signs that you can evidence were on site and which you contend formed a contract with the driver on that occasion, as well as all photographs taken of this vehicle.
If you believe you have a cause of action, send a Letter before Claim within the next 21 days and I will take advice and will respond.
However, in my opinion, there is a better alternative than legal proceedings, namely that we utilise the services of a completely independent ADR service suited to parking charges. This does not include the IAS appeal service - which lacks any transparency and possibly any independence from the IPC - unlike the alternative offered by the British Parking Association, POPLA, which is transparent and has been shown to be independent.
Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to such contact and to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your costs which are not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable.
Yours faithfully,
ostell
Thu, 14 Jul 2016 - 17:01
Add somewhere at the start that you are handling this matter as the registered keeper who has been handed a parking charge notice.
I would miss out the LBC line.
Do not remind them of POFA. It might remind them to send a NTK.
Strawberries
Fri, 29 Jul 2016 - 09:40
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 14 Jul 2016 - 18:01)
Add somewhere at the start that you are handling this matter as the registered keeper who has been handed a parking charge notice.
I would miss out the LBC line.
Do not remind them of POFA. It might remind them to send a NTK.
Thanks Ostell.
Why do you suggest I remove the reference to LBC?
ostell
Fri, 29 Jul 2016 - 09:54
So that you get into a letter ping pong and they go past the 56 days to issue a NTK
Strawberries
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 14:45
Update Everyone!
I got a letter from them giving me 14 days to pay £60.
Received letter on the 5th but can't prove that; it's dated 1st so 15th is the last day.
Please see attached.
What do you advice I do next please?
nosferatu1001
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 14:48
No, its presumed delivered 2 days after. A witness statement attesting to the 5th as received date would likely be believed. STOP SELLING YOURSELF SHORT
You resolve it by following the usual advice - go to photobucket / tinypics etc, use the {IMG} tag links (they will have a url, but with squad brackets around the text "IMG") to have the pictures show up in this thread. you do NOT want clicky links.
Is that a response to your appeal?
Strawberries
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 14:52
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 15:48)
No, its presumed delivered 2 days after. A witness statement attesting to the 5th as received date would likely be believed. STOP SELLING YOURSELF SHORT
You resolve it by following the usual advice - go to photobucket / tinypics etc, use the {IMG} tag links (they will have a url, but with squad brackets around the text "IMG") to have the pictures show up in this thread. you do NOT want clicky links.
Is that a response to your appeal?
Thanks Nosferatu.
I found a way to delete the attachment sin my account. I've uploaded their response to my appeal and will see if I can use photobucket to display it in the body of the email as you suggest.
nosferatu1001
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 15:02
Standard response
Dont appeal to the IAS. POintless
Expect debt collector letters. THeyre powerless. Onluy come back for court papers OR letters before claim.
Strawberries
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 15:13
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 16:02)
Standard response
Dont appeal to the IAS. POintless
Expect debt collector letters. THeyre powerless. Onluy come back for court papers OR letters before claim.
What chance do i have in court? Especially in light of recent judgements?
nosferatu1001
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 15:24
Beavis applied to a free car park with a fixed time limit for that time and a pressing commercial need to ensure turnover.
This is not the same as your situation.
You also presume its going to court.
Strawberries
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 15:30
Thanks.
ostell
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 16:02
That letter is a load of rubbish. Their own trading association expects them to have a contract with the landholder to be able to operate. you could wait a few days and point this out to them that as the owner of that space is not them then you doubt if they have a contract with them and are attempting to run a business on land that they do not own. And point out that the circumstances in Beavis were entirely different to the situation here in that beavis a a restricted time and here there was not.
You could register to appeal with IAS.
Lynnzer
Tue, 9 Aug 2016 - 17:11
What an absolute load of $hite that letter is.
It seems that we should start all over on this case.
First you refer to "my residential development".
How come? Are you a leaseholder, rent or own a property on the development?
If so then what does your contract say? There's usually nothing about the need to display a permit or even if thee is there will almost certainly be no mention of you attracting a financial penalty for not doing so.
So let's start again and have this very necessary question sorted out.
Strawberries
Sat, 22 Oct 2016 - 13:00
Hi everyone,
Update: I've received a letter offering a reduction to £136 to avoid court action. I have until the 24yh of October to take the offer. Please see image below.
Thank you.
Lynnzer
Sat, 22 Oct 2016 - 13:31
And the answer to my previous post is???????
SchoolRunMum
Sat, 22 Oct 2016 - 15:03
QUOTE
I've received a letter offering a reduction to £136 to avoid court action. I have until the 24th of October to take the offer.
Offer? Why are you even reading these letters from Debt Recovery Plus?!
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5035663Stop reading the drivel a stupid toothless debt call centre are sending you (and DO NOT ring them!) and start reading what we are saying! Lynnzer asked:
QUOTE
First you refer to "my residential development".
How come? Are you a leaseholder, rent or own a property on the development?
If so then what does your contract say? There's usually nothing about the need to display a permit or even if thee is there will almost certainly be no mention of you attracting a financial penalty for not doing so.
So let's start again and have this very necessary question sorted out.
thevaliant
Mon, 24 Oct 2016 - 08:57
From long and nasty experience of leasehold flats (and associated parking problems) I do quite enjoy these sorts of threads.
As I've pointed out long and hard, parking in your own leased/rented bay and no displaying a permit can't possible entitle some third party to charge you any money. It's your land, and no one can profit from it except you.
But if you park in someone else's? Mr. Smith from Number 64? Well, surely another third party can't profit either. Mr. Smith has been wronged, and unless he's contracted with the PPC personally, it's unlikely the PPC have landholder rights to charge either. If you owed anyone any money, it would be Mr. Smith for damages.
Answer Lynnzer's questions first. We can't help you otherwise, though you seem to have progressed beyond the point of realistically likely getting a court claim now.
Strawberries
Mon, 24 Oct 2016 - 09:58
I'm a tenant not a leaseholder.
I've been unable to locate the lease but will revert once I get a copy.
Thanks.
nosferatu1001
Mon, 24 Oct 2016 - 11:50
Pretty much the same thing. they convey rihtws to a property for a certain time under certain conditions.
cabbyman
Mon, 24 Oct 2016 - 16:45
You are the holder of a term of years absolute also known as a lease for which you pay rent for a determined period.
The other class of occupation of land is freehold, or fee simple absolute in possession whereby the land is held of the crown and is the highest estate in land.
Land can also be occupied under a licence which is determinable at will.
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