Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Berlingo L1 625 kg Speeding Ticket
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
eezeedriver
Hi all,
I have been reading on here with great interest about speed limits for "car derived vans". I have received an NIP for doing exactly 70mph on a Dorset dual carriageway in my Berlingo. My Berlingo has the lower gross weight of 1960kg so I thought I was within the law to travel at 70 mph on this dual carriageway (70mph for cars).
I am a courier based in Hampshire and have never received a ticket in 28 years of driving ( over a million miles). I frequently use the A3 as it is the main carriageway to London for me. After I received the ticket I contacted Hampshire ticket office as I wanted confirmation of the law.They stated that because my vehicles gross weight was "under 2.5 tonne" I was lawfully able to travel at 70mph along the A3, hence never a ticket from them.Their message to me was to fight it!
Armed with this information I telephoned Dorset ticket office to see if they would rescind the ticket.The lady on the desk told me that as my van is registered as a "panel van" it is subject to the lower speed limit of 60 mph and she was not interested in the weight of the vehicle. I was not put off by her reaction so I decided to call back a day later. This time I spoke to a man, he listened to my argument and then said he would put it to his supervisor.
I argued the following; The citroen berlingo van and multispace are practically the same vehicle albeit one without seats and windows in the back. How can each of these vehicles be subject to different speed limits when if anything the multispace weighs more? I told him that my vehicle is under the magic 2 tonne even when fully loaded. I told him that other police forces had rescinded their tickets for Berlingos on appeal.
Today I have my reply from the supervisor. "The vin for your vehicle is VF.......... and is therefore a panel van and is restricted to 60 mph on a dual carriageway"
I am close to giving up but I really don't want to accept my first ever speeding ticket on what seems to me a tiny technicality. They are insisting its because its a "panel van" as stated on my V5. As I see it this is not the actual law. The law states that the vehicle has to weigh less than 2 tonne and be car derived.Surely a panel van can be derived from a car !!! The car derivative is the sticking point as all Citroen can say is that the Berlingo van came before the multispace and they confirmed this to the supervisor. However I have read that the Berlingo is based on the earlier C4, can't find confirmation though.

On the govenrment website it states the following;

Car-derived vans
Car-derived vans are designed to weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs (eg Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Corsa), or the vehicle is built from a platform which has been designed to be built as a car or a van.

As a general rule, from the outside, these vehicles will look like the size of a car, but on the inside the vehicle will look like and function as a van, because there will be:

no rear seats, rear seat belts or mountings
a payload area with floor panel in the rear of the vehicle
no side windows in the rear of the vehicle or if present, side windows will be opaque and fixed (with no means of opening or closing)

Well if that does not describe the the difference between my van and the multispace I don't know what does!!!!
Dorset ticket office are clearly not interested in rescinding the ticket so I will more than likely go to court armed with all the information I have mentioned and a photo of the outside and cab of a berlingo van and multispace.

Would love some guidance, help or just backing from the forum members on this as I feel that it is beyond ridiculous. Has anyone ever gone before a magistrate to contest? Am I wasting my time?
Sorry for going on and thanks for reading!
Mat_Shamus
Am i right in thinking that the Berlingo is more a van derived car, rather than a car derived van?
eezeedriver
According to some at Citroen you would be right in your thinking Mat, however others have said that it is derived originally from the C4 car. Basically I am at the mercy of each Police force I encounter which as a nationwide courier driver is a huge headache.
To me it is ridiculous that the berlingo multispace (kerb weight 1625kg) can load up with 5x 20 stone plus people and luggage and can travel at 70 mph along a dual carriageway. The berlingo van only weighs 1325kg unladen and 1960kg fully loaded, it is exactly the same vehicle as the multispace apart from rear windows and seats but must (according to Dorset Police) adhere to the lower limit!!
If its purely a matter of safety then surely the van will have the shorter stopping distance and therefore be a safer conveyance?
Jlc
There was a case on here recently where the force eventually relented - again because they took what the DVLA listed as 'gospel' rather than the law. I'll see if I can find it.

I think it's this one.
Mat_Shamus
I agree somewhat. It is a bit silly the way it works.

I'm interested to what the experienced members on here say advice wise.

The front end of the Berlingo was from a C4 but it's in a class of it's own due to the larger rear end.

A bit like you used to have the two types of Ford Fiesta vans. One was essentially the same as the hatchback model but no seats or windows and the other model had a different rear end completely and was much larger.
Jlc
The law is possibly outdated but it is what it is. No disrespect to the Police but they can get a bit dogmatic about this when the DVLA seems to provide all they think they need to know...
eezeedriver
Thanks for your input guys, really appreciated. I have read somewhere (maybe here) that a father got his sons speeding ticket for his Berlingo (same circumstances as mine) rescinded by Kent Police with an apology. When I spoke to Hampshire ticket office they were only concerned by weight and thus only looked at transits,transporters etc breaching the lower speed limit and not the smaller vans ie, Berlingo, connect, partner etc.
To me it is purely commonsense nothing more and that is why I would like to argue my case before a magistrate as the argument against this ticket is more than persuasive.
Jlc
Arguing common sense could prove to be an expensive point of principle if the law is clear as written.

That speed will see a course offer - may be a 'safer' outcome.
eezeedriver
I totally accept your point but I find it much more difficult to accept this £100 fine or £110 course that I have to travel to Dorset for unlike many other counties that let you take it nearer to home. The fact is that the law is enforced differently from county to county and I may argue against being prosecuted for something in Dorset that I would not get prosecuted for in Hampshire. I also like that argument that both vehicles are built from the same platform as per Government website.
To save all the hassle I would probably pay for the course if I could take it locally but as I can't it further spurs me on to try and find a resolution in front of a magistrate,
Jlc
I understand your frustration but if the vehicle is restricted to 60 on these roads then it would be best to comply even if some forces would not take action. That lack of action doesn't provide a defence...
Bipolar
So much for "Fightback Forums".

As you say Government advice is that car-derived vans include those that are based on a subframe designed for both cars and vans.

Drop an email to the Chief Constable of the force outlining your circumstances. Costs nothing and can avoid you having to argue the case in front of magistrates.

The DVLA is (unsurprisingly) behind the times where one subframe is used for multiple cars and vans. This doesn't mean the CDV is any less relevant and the gov.uk recognises this in acknowledging shared subframes.
Jlc
Yes, 'fightback' but only if the law supports the position. (Thus the 'if' above - I'm being lazy and haven't dug into the specifics right now)

Government 'advice' is not always right.
The Rookie
Not sure I agree with JLC here, the law is outdated, not just in its limitations but it's clarity of what is, and is not, a CDV, if it were me I would be defending it, but the issue is that if the Police push it to court the case will be in Dorset, that will take a lot more effort than the OP is prepared to use to accept a SAC so really it's a straight fold or take the pain choice unless the Police do drop it.
StationCat
Wikipedia says that the Citroen Berlingo and Peugeot Partner are based on the Citroen ZX / Peugeot 306 estate floorpan and mechanicals. Unfortunately, there is no source provided for this information. Some forces have taken the common sense approach and treat all small vans as CDV's as long as they fall below the required weight, but others are stubborn about it. The OP should try writing / emailing again to point the facts available.
eezeedriver
Thanks for comments.
Today I spoke to a technician at Citroen who believed the berlingo to be based on the Peugeot 306 which seems to be confirmed by wiki.The government website states the van must use the same platform as the car. According to wiki the platform for this and other vehicles was developed in France and used for the berlingo, pug 307 and citroen C4 among others.
If this is correct and my van adheres to the government guidelines than surely I can successfully argue my case?
Phoned ticket office today and spoke to a very understanding lady who took all the facts into account and is to put them to the supervisor.At this moment I await a call back.
The Rookie
Hopefully common sense will prevail.

Your source is correct, having looked under a Multispace before now the front end is 306.
bill w
We've been here before and it's an absolute nightmare trying to work it out for the Berlingo. It's even possible that it depends on whether it's a Mk1,2 or 3
I think the latter is based on a care, but the Mk 1&2 may not be.

There is the suggestion that it's down to what the dealer originally registered it as with the DVLA which seems crackers as one could end up with two different speed limits for identical vehicles.

On the other hand Sussex are adamant the a Berlingo is always subject to lower limits.

What Van's article is worth a read, though primarily aimed at another anomaly.

And there is an interesting discussion on the Berlingo Forum.

Now clear as mud I trust. sad.gif
The Rookie
What it is registered as at DVLA is irrelevant, although getting it registered as a car derived van, while meaningless, would probably make life a lot easier!

Ironic that the Sussex statement about Berlingos goes contrary to the government guidance that a CDV can be a van that has derived into a car (ignoring that it may have been derived from a less obvious car to start with).
Churchmouse
QUOTE (bill w @ Thu, 7 Jul 2016 - 22:36) *

On the other other hand, perhaps Sussex will change their tune once someone has bothered to edit the content on that page to include the missing hyperlinks and (copyright-flouting) Autotrader images... I cannot recall having seen a similar fist having been made of web-editing in my entire life. How embarrassing... huh.gif

--Churchmouse
eezeedriver
UPDATE
Today spoke to supervisor of Dorset ticket office and my ticket will not ( cannot) be rescinded. My vehicle is a panel van END OF!!! Doesn't matter if it was car derived or what it weighs it is registered as a panel van and as such should adhere to the lower speed limit. That is the stance of Dorset Police and I now have to go before a magistrate if I want to dispute.
Having found evidence that the berlingo shares a platform with other Citroen cars and it conforms to what the government says is a car derived van I am 90% sure I will battle on. I've never done anything like this before but I am pretty sure I can convince a magistrate of the absolute farce that this is.The camera vans are there to stop speeding for SAFETY reasons and my van is safer than a full multispace that can travel at the higher limit, farce proven!
What do you reckon guys, am I wasting my time or is it about time this was settled once and for all?
bill w
I don't know whether this helps your case or not, but the official gov.uk Guidance is HERE
Note though, that "Guidance" is just that unfortunately.

Car-derived vans are the only goods vehicles which are subject to the same speed limits as a car.

Car-derived vans
Car-derived vans are designed to weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs (eg Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Corsa), or the vehicle is built from a platform which has been designed to be built as a car or a van.

As a general rule, from the outside, these vehicles will look like the size of a car, but on the inside the vehicle will look like and function as a van, because there will be:

no rear seats, rear seat belts or mountings
a payload area with floor panel in the rear of the vehicle
no side windows in the rear of the vehicle or if present, side windows will be opaque and fixed (with no means of opening or closing)
If you want to find out more information about the design of your vehicle and whether your van is car-derived, you can check your log book and the description in the field ‘body type’. This will tell you how the vehicle has been classified by the manufacturer.

If you believe your new vehicle is a car-derived van, but has not been registered as one, you should contact your dealer. If you have bought a second-hand vehicle you believe is car-derived, but has not been registered as one, you should contact the manufacturer.


Good Luck
andy_foster
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 21:54) *
Today spoke to supervisor of Dorset ticket office and my ticket will not ( cannot) be rescinded. My vehicle is a panel van END OF!!! Doesn't matter if it was car derived or what it weighs it is registered as a panel van and as such should adhere to the lower speed limit. That is the stance of Dorset Police and I now have to go before a magistrate if I want to dispute.


Don't suppose that you could get them to put this in writing?
southpaw82
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 21:54) *
The camera vans are there to stop speeding for SAFETY reasons

I thought they were there to enforce the speed limit, personally.
Jlc
The law on this stinks but I think you'll lose but perhaps you'll upset the apple cart.

Sussex specifically mentions it as a van (with a car derived from the van) and in their opinion, therefore, is not a car derived van.

The legislation says:
"Car-derived van” means a goods vehicle which is constructed or adapted as a derivative of a passenger vehicle and which has a maximum laden weight not exceeding 2 tonnes;

As I said before, whether other forces choose to prosecute or not isn't strictly a defence - although shows there's some ambiguity.

Any argument would be that the 'derivative' applies in both directions. Basically, whether the egg or the chicken came first.
eezeedriver
Above all it is for ones safety and other road users safety in my opinion, they are a road safety measure.
In answer to the "in writing" question, theres nothing to stop me asking. I feel you have a cunning plan, please elaborate?
southpaw82
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 23:54) *
Above all it is for ones safety and other road users safety in my opinion, they are a road safety measure

Fine but it's not particularly relevant.
andy_foster
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Fri, 8 Jul 2016 - 23:54) *
In answer to the "in writing" question, theres nothing to stop me asking. I feel you have a cunning plan, please elaborate?


Nothing particularly cunning or specific.

Regardless of whether your van is actually a car derived van (IMHO it is), it seems that Dorset police are applying the wrong test (what the vehicle is registered as, rather than what it actually is/was built as. Whilst this is an error in law and therefore unlawful under public law, this does not in itself create a defence - the defence is that it is a car derived van (or possibly simply putting the prosecution to proof that it isn't) - concrete evidence of their unlawful policy might have an effect on the court's sympathies, and would help to start a media campaign if you win and want to do something about the ongoing problem.
The Rookie
The it irony is that the expression panel van was created when manufacturers started installing panels instead of glazing in estate cars to create vans, or in other words the very first car derived vans.

I'd be writing a letter of complaint to the local chief constable, both with respect to the fact that your car is a car derived van and also that his officers are applying the wrong test in law, a CDV is a a matter of fact and not DVLA registration detail, it could also be called a CDV by description if up were over 2 tonnes MAM and not be able to use the higher speed limit. By writing to the CC you should get your complaint read by someone outside the small camera team who are currently failing to actually check what the law says.
Jlc
Fleet news quotes Citroen as saying that they regard it as car derived. If you could get something in writing from them...

But the issue reported there is how the vehicle is registered with the DVLA - whether registered as a CDV at new or not. Whilst this would normally be the correct attribute to check it is not, as Andy noted, the definitive source on whether the vehicle is a CDV as defined in legislation.

At least your recorded speed wasn't over 70 as we've seen cases of well over 70 where it would seem a bit perverse to pursue this avenue when the highest limit in the land was exceeded...!
kernow2015
I'm sure I've seen somewhere before that the van came before the car version, thus making it a van derived car? I know the local council had R reg Partner vans for the highways teams but I've never seen an R reg passenger version.
eezeedriver
The following is what Citroen told Dorset office.
" Assuming it is the current incarnation of Berlingo (vin vf...), it is actually a panel van as the van was approved before the multispace version of it"
The vin for your vehicle is vf.... and is therefore a panel van and is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway.
This was sent to me by Dorset office in reply to my initial query.
The whole case to me rests on whether the governments guidelines for a car derived van are law. The berlingo comfortably meets both criteria as set out on the government website. The berlingo "shares" its platform (PS2) with a number of cars.It has the same outline as the car (multispace) with no rear seats or seat belts.The gov website does not mention what came first.
After conversation with Dorset it is quite clear that if it says panel van on V5 then it is subject to the lower limit whether it is car derived or not with weight not an issue at all.
I have attempted to contact my local mp and await a reply as I feel his backing could be crucial.
If I do take this matter further, Dorset office stated that my mitigating evidence will be looked at by the prosecuting traffic office and there is a slight chance it may be rescinded before it goes to court, however unlikely.
peterguk
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 09:22) *
The following is what Citroen told Dorset office.
" Assuming it is the current incarnation of Berlingo (vin vf...), it is actually a panel van as the van was approved before the multispace version of it"
The vin for your vehicle is vf.... and is therefore a panel van and is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway.


If the manufacturer says it's a panel van (within the current legislation) then i suspect you'll have an uphill battle in court.
eezeedriver
Agreed, however when I spoke to a Citroen engineer it didn't matter that the van came before the multispace as they were all derived from a much earlier Peugeot 306 car!
I think if I can get this in writing from Citroen and not just quote from wiki I have a water tight defence.Like I have said earlier I have never been through a court process so I am by no means an expert but I am not in a position to pay for legal advice.
I really feel I should fight this ticket and not just accept it, I think I would have the support of the forum and if I were to get a positive result it would help fellow drivers in the future.
The Rookie
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 09:56) *
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 09:22) *
The following is what Citroen told Dorset office.
" Assuming it is the current incarnation of Berlingo (vin vf...), it is actually a panel van as the van was approved before the multispace version of it"
The vin for your vehicle is vf.... and is therefore a panel van and is restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway.


If the manufacturer says it's a panel van (within the current legislation) then i suspect you'll have an uphill battle in court.

Noting that the first panel vans were the first car derived vans.....
localdriver
The confusion is the authorities comparing the van with the multispace and making their decision on the fact that the van came first, which it did.
If you can get confirmation from Citroen that they are both a derivitive of the earlier 306 car, that would show the van is a car derived van.


The Rookie
Or use the government guidance which says it doesn't matter which way round they were produced perhaps?
bill w
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 11:04) *
Or use the government guidance which says it doesn't matter which way round they were produced perhaps?


It's presumably worth a try which is why I mentioned it in Post 21.
The trouble is that it's only "Guidance", which whilst it may be persuasive, presumably hasn't been tested in a higher court.

Unfortunately said Guidance, also seems to allow the anomaly of two completely identical vehicles, differently listed on their respective V5s, as "CDV" or "Panel Van", to be subject to different speed limits (at least according to the speed camera partnerships anyway).
Surely that can't be the intention of any reasonable interpretation of the law.

I do know that my previous employer's legal department successfully supported a number of employees driving Vauxhall Combos with their speeding tickets. (Gross weight < 2000Kg)
They were listed on their V5s as CDVs though.
It didn't affect me as I had a Transit Connect, or Fiat Doblo-Diesel, both a shade over 2000Kg
The Rookie
The DVLA category is irrelevant, you could put a connect as a CDV and it still wouldn't qualify for the higher limit.

I would argue that the governments advice reflects the will of parliament and as parliament set the law the guidance on interpretation they provide should be very pursuasive.
Churchmouse
QUOTE (localdriver @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 11:00) *
The confusion is the authorities comparing the van with the multispace and making their decision on the fact that the van came first, which it did.
If you can get confirmation from Citroen that they are both a derivitive of the earlier 306 car, that would show the van is a car derived van.

By the logic of "which came first", shouldn't "van-derived cars" be subject to van speed limits?

Is the Dorset supervisor prepared to drop the charge if you get the V5C changed to CDV? But I don't know if you have enough time to do that...

--Churchmouse
eezeedriver
I agree with you Rookie and that is my plan for defence, thank you and everyone that has done their best to provide advice and information.
It helps to know people are with me and that I am not actually going mad.
andy_foster
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 12:00) *
I would argue that the governments advice reflects the will of parliament and as parliament set the law the guidance on interpretation they provide should be very pursuasive.


The rules for relying on material other than the legislation itself to divine the will of Parliament are quite restrictive - see Pepper v Hart. That does not mean that government advice is not persuasive.

QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Sat, 9 Jul 2016 - 13:37) *
By the logic of "which came first", shouldn't "van-derived cars" be subject to van speed limits?


No
eezeedriver
Good evening all, Just a quick note to those interested, I have pleaded not guilty and will be going to court. My MP tried to help but to no avail and Dorset Police are to proceed with my prosecution.
SatNavSam
Did you get anything out of Citroen about the heritage thing?
eezeedriver
I have spoken to Citroen customer care today and explained my case.They have passed on my concerns further up the line at Citroen and have tried to get me some sort of confirmation in writing that it either shares a platform with the multispace or is derived originally from a peugeot car.
eezeedriver
Court on Tuesday armed with every bit of evidence I have gleaned from the net and other sources. Will update the forum with a result (hopefully positive), wish me luck!!!
The Rookie
Good Luck!
eezeedriver
Thanks Rookie, my defence is largely based on the government guidelines for car-derived vans, the berlingo clearly meets these. Also will use the FACT that the berlingo van was originally derived from a peugeot car. I have other lines as well but I think the guidelines are pretty conclusive if accepted.
SatNavSam
ATB, eezeedriver.
Tr33hous3
I assume that a speed camera won't know the difference between a van and car?

It will simply enforce the speed limit set for everyone such as 70? As in it won't photograph any vehicle that doesn't exceed the limit.

If so how did this happen?
peterguk
QUOTE (eezeedriver @ Wed, 28 Sep 2016 - 08:29) *
I have spoken to Citroen customer care today and explained my case.They have passed on my concerns further up the line at Citroen and have tried to get me some sort of confirmation in writing that it either shares a platform with the multispace or is derived originally from a peugeot car.


Did you receive written confirmation from Citroen?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.