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ned1988
Hello all,

I've been reading around to try and find a situation similar to mine but couldn't find any.

I've been living at this address since mid February. I changed my drivers licence address, and on the issue date it states 8th march 2016. Offence date is also 8th March 2016. So it seems that the change of address on drivers licence triggered this.

I did forget to take my VC5 to the post office with me. I pulled it out today and I'd even filled it in sad.gif Never sent it off though.

So today in the post I get a letter from DVLA saying I had a court appearance last Tuesday 14th, and "the court has notified us you have been convicted of a driving offence on the above date.

I checked the DVLA website and it's telling me this



I'm guessing all correspondence regarding this offence have been going to my old address, as this is the first thing I have heard about the offence.

So six points and a fine of £660. Is that not a little steep for forgetting to change my VC5, I know it's the law, but people get less points and fines for arguably worse driving offences.


I called the DVLA and they couldnt tell me much, just refered me to the court's telephone number. I rang this about ten times this afternoon and was told they're too busy, email or call back later. So I'm going to send them an email..

If I got the first letter would it have still been a NIP? or would it be a pay us £XXX and we'll leave you alone. I see on the .gov website they can fine to to £1000 for this.

I'll a little lost and quite p***** off. I can't cough up £660 at the moment, and even if I could I have no information on how to pay.

Any advice most welcome smile.gif

Regards

Ned

Edit - I sent my VC5 off at the post office with the current address this afternoon.
southpaw82
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Mon, 20 Jun 2016 - 18:36) *
So six points and a fine of £660. Is that not a little steep for forgetting to change my VC5, I know it's the law, but people get less points and fines for arguably worse driving offences.

The fine and points aren't for a driving offence or for failing to update your address, they're for failing to name the driver in response to a s. 172 notice that was served on you (at your old address) but you never received. Do a search for statutory declaration.
Jlc
There's always 1 or 2 threads on this on the first page. Indeed, there's definitely one right now that I've responded with all the salient points. Check it and come back for specifics. Here's one.
ned1988
I have read through a dozen or so threads before signing up.

I just don't think it's coincidence the date of my license renewal and date of offence were the exact same day....
Jlc
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Tue, 21 Jun 2016 - 07:34) *
I just don't think it's coincidence the date of my license renewal and date of offence were the exact same day....

I can't see why that's relevant. S172 offences occur 28 days after the notice was assumed to have been received (or not in this case). So the underlying offence was probably around 1 month prior or so. It's a coincidence but just that.
Pete P
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Mon, 20 Jun 2016 - 18:36) *
So six points and a fine of £660. Is that not a little steep for forgetting to change my VC5, I know it's the law, but people get less points and fines for arguably worse driving offences.


For a start the points and fine are not for failing to update your V5. Also, MS90 is arguably one of the most serious convictions aside from actually killing someone.
The Rookie
You have 21 days to make a statutory declaration from when you became aware of the conviction, you're using them up fast and making little headway.
peterguk
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Mon, 20 Jun 2016 - 18:36) *
If I got the first letter would it have still been a NIP? or would it be a pay us £XXX and we'll leave you alone.


The first "letter" in the chain of many would have been a NIP/S172 giving you details of the alleged offence and requesting driver details.

Followed by (possibly) a reminder, then a summons to appear in court, and finally a notice detailing the conviction in court.

Shame you didn't employ mail forwarding with the RM. People generally either can't be bothered or think they're saving a few £s, but it can prevent a lot of aggro in the months following moving house.
ned1988
Thanks for the replies guys. I hadn't quite realised the gravity of a MS90 at the time of starting this thread. Next time I move I'm definately doing the royal mail forwarding. I thought I'd boxed it all off, I found my VC5 and it was even filled in, just not sent off sad.gif

So you were right it was nothing to do with the updating driving licence. It's a 30MPH camera on the way to work.

I'm making a stat dec at Chester magistrates next week. So after the SD, when they ask about the speeding offence, I'm planning on pleading guilty. I do remember being on auto pilot one morning doing around 35-40 and slamming on when I realised where I was.

I've been told twice it should all be wrapped up in one session if I please guilty to the speeding offence after I've made the stat dec. Woman on the phone said no need for a suit but I want to go suited and booted anyway. Any other tips, or what to expect? I'm thinking 3 points and £100 hopefully, if the case is fully reset.
Logician
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Wed, 29 Jun 2016 - 14:56) *
I'm making a stat dec at Chester magistrates next week. So after the SD, when they ask about the speeding offence, I'm planning on pleading guilty.


NOOO!!

Do not do that. Have another look at the threads you have been directed to. You need to maintain a Not Guilty plea to both charges until there is a prosecutor in court with whom you can discuss doing a deal. When you have an agreement to drop the s.172 charge if you plead guilty to the speeding, then and only then do you plead guilty to it. Otherwise there is a very real risk you will be convicted of both offence.

If there is a prosecutor in court when you do the SD, fine you can probably do the deal immediately, otherwise plea not guilty to the speeding as well as the s.172 and a new date will be set, on that date there will be a traffic prosecutor present and the deal can be done.

ned1988
I was under the impression from talking on the phone to the court that once i'd made a SD, everything gets wiped including the ms90 charge and I will be asked about just the speeding offence. Oversight on my part!

So lets say there is a traffic prosecutor present, this is how I now have it in my head.

After the SD I will be asked how I plead to both charges. MS90 and the speeding ticket. I plead not guilty to both charges. Then I instigate a plea bargain? How exactly do you instigate that, I'm presuming it's not as simple as 'Can I have a plea bargain please'

Then once it's been instigated do I offer to plead guilty to the speeding offence under the condition that the MS90 is dropped. Or do you have to take a more cautious approach and let them give the terms?

I just want to get the picture of exactly what I'll be asked and in what order, and how to go about getting a plea bargain.

Thanks for the help, most grateful to all and any. smile.gif

Jlc
They may be happy to accept a 'plea bargain' straight after the SD. If they won't then your only option is to maintain a NG plea and start again at the next date.
andy_foster
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Fri, 1 Jul 2016 - 19:19) *
I was under the impression from talking on the phone to the court that once i'd made a SD, everything gets wiped including the ms90 charge and I will be asked about just the speeding offence. Oversight on my part!


The SD quashes the conviction. Depending how/where the SD is made it takes to you either the plea hearing, or just before the plea hearing. You have the right to a fair trial, which includes knowing about the hearing(s) so that you can attend and have your say. The SD process is about ensuring that you have this right (regardless of why you were not aware of the hearing(s).

QUOTE
So lets say there is a traffic prosecutor present, this is how I now have it in my head.

After the SD I will be asked how I plead to both charges. MS90 and the speeding ticket. I plead not guilty to both charges. Then I instigate a plea bargain? How exactly do you instigate that, I'm presuming it's not as simple as 'Can I have a plea bargain please'

Then once it's been instigated do I offer to plead guilty to the speeding offence under the condition that the MS90 is dropped. Or do you have to take a more cautious approach and let them give the terms?

I just want to get the picture of exactly what I'll be asked and in what order, and how to go about getting a plea bargain.


You cannot enter into a plea bargain with the court - only with the prosecution. The prosecution can drop the s. 172 charge, the court can't.
The first person you speak to will almost certainly be the usher, who will be walking around in a gown with a clipboard. The usher is your best chance of finding a prosecutor that you can do a deal with. Talk to him nicely. That said, I doubt that you will be able to do a deal at the SD.

No-one can tell you exactly how things will go. The only thing we can tell you is that if you have to enter a plea and have not been able to talk to a prosecutor, plead not guilty. Pretty much the only thing that you can do wrong is to plead guilty before a deal is in place.
Logician
The usual procedure on a plea bargain is:

Provided the speeding offence would attract less than 6 points on its own, you should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set, despite a statement on the letter that you do not need to do so. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead Guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

The point is you need there to be a prosecutor present who will take responsibility for traffic matters. The SD may be slotted into the court timetable when there is no such prosecutor present. As Andy says above, only a prosecutor can agree a deal, however used the court are to it being done, onlt a prosecutor can agree to drop charges.
ned1988
Thanks for the replies guys. Very much appreciated as always smile.gif
ned1988
Just an update on how it went..

Doing 40MPH in a 30MPH. Verdict - £180 fine (£80 speeding and £100 for victim and court charges). Three points on licence. s.172 was dropped.

I'd come in 40 minutes early and explained it all to the usher, who went inside the court room to explain to the powers that be. So when I went in (first of the day), they'd said the s.172 will be voided completely if I was to plead guilty to the underlying offence of speeding, I queried this as I thought I plea bargain would have to be made. They said no, and repeated that the s.172 will be dropped if you intend to plead guilty to speeding offence. Swore the oath, agreed on all terms and I was out.

Checked with my insurance company (website) and I don't need to tell them until my renewal.

So thank you to all of you who posted, this was my little peace of mind website over the last few weeks. If I can contribute to others topics in future with any of my experiences I will do. Cheers guys smile.gif
The Rookie
Well done, but that agreement WAS the plea bargain (there being no formal method under UK law).
ned1988
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 7 Jul 2016 - 10:38) *
Well done, but that agreement WAS the plea bargain (there being no formal method under UK law).


Thanks bud, yeah I figured it was. I just expected me to have to initiate it, makes more sense after you saying there is no formal law.
andy_foster
QUOTE (ned1988 @ Thu, 7 Jul 2016 - 13:40) *
I just expected me to have to initiate it


You did. You spoke to the usher who presumably passed on your request to the prosecutor.
ned1988
Well no, I said to the usher I'm here to make a SD with regards to speeding ticket and NIPs etc have gone to the wrong address. I didn't say which way I was intending to plead, she came and asked about 25 mins later if I wanted to plead guilty to speeding.

Anyway, nitpicking. Just happy it's done!
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