Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Southampton Row today
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Biker111
Hi everyone,

After reading through loads of posts about bus lane PCNs sent out for Southampton Row to inform my own case I registered. Thanks to everyone on here fighting for a little bit of traffic justice!

I'm curious to know if anyone else on here is dealing with a Southampton Row bus lane PCN at the moment. After two rejections by post I just made a formal appeal via the online platform and then googled for some news:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/655885/UK...us-lane-council (although the racism in the comments is embarassing)
http://www.thecnj.com/camden/060806/news060806_08.htm

Obviously S.R. is a cash cow, but that's not news to us. I really wish we could do something about holding councils like this accountable for their money-grubbing ways. The money they're taking from us is clearly not going back into improving the infrastructure of London, yet somehow no over-arching regulatory body seems to hold any power over them. It's all a sham. Sorry for the rant, please just send me a pm if you disagree.

I rode through this bus lane for a few seconds back in March 2016 - had not done this before and didn't see the one bus lane sign that Camden Borough says exists on the road (probably obscured by a bus), so I followed the left arrow when I saw it and turned left. I was in the lane for a few seconds before the dotted lines come in. Couple weeks later I got a PCN in the mail. I tried to argue for basically everything you can find in other threads, and the response was, in short, "We know what you're saying is true, but we want you to pay anyway." Both their responses were also delayed by about a month and they apologized for an "undue delay in answering" both times. I've made the formal appeal online now, and I'm assuming this will go to PATAS so I'm wondering, what's the status of this road right now? Do the PATAS cases previously mentioned still have any validity? Is the signage on this street actually acceptable now (in the eyes of non-civilians, that is)?

Can do scans etc. if necessary, but I'm really only looking for general info at the moment. Thanks to anyone who can help answer my questions and thanks for everything you've done already!
PASTMYBEST
Each case has its own merits or not. Post the pcn your challenges and the rejections. Also the video. Other than any potential technical defences that is the evidence
Incandescent
Even if you lose at London Tribunals, you'll have cost them more than the money they get from the PCN. The fact is that whatever adjudicators say about bad signage, it is all water off a ducks back, they can essentially do as they please and thumb their noses at you and also the adjudicators. Until some penalties for councils get into law the situation will just carry on. If everybody appealed all the way, the system would come to a grinding halt and something would have to be done then.
Biker111
Thanks for the response, people.

I have now received the formal rejection letter so I am preparing to submit my case by the 20th of July. Any tips on what evidence to gather and what days/times to choose for a potential hearing?

I will post scanned letters ASAP. Is there a way to link to the video? (Even if you can only watch it supposedly on Internet Explorer 8.)
Biker111
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 7 Jun 2016 - 22:55) *
Even if you lose at London Tribunals, you'll have cost them more than the money they get from the PCN. The fact is that whatever adjudicators say about bad signage, it is all water off a ducks back, they can essentially do as they please and thumb their noses at you and also the adjudicators. Until some penalties for councils get into law the situation will just carry on. If everybody appealed all the way, the system would come to a grinding halt and something would have to be done then.


I'm actually really curious about this. How much money does it cost them on average to be called into London Tribunals?

After comparing the signage at Southampton Row with that of several locations around London I can add that generally there are repeated signs posted next to bus lanes. I've counted as many as one every 10-15 yards on one stretch of road in some places; at Southampton Row there are only two signs in total, so with the many buses and lorries it's only logical the signs often can't even be seen! I might make a film showing signage at different locations to bring to the hearing if I get one.
Biker111
I'm in the process of scanning all the documents. Here are the first few:

(Sorry, but the first response I received from the process officer totals 21 pages. I've got the images, should I really post all of them?)
John U.K.
Your going to run out of attachment space!
You may find this advice helpful:

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image, and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.
Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.
PASTMYBEST
Post the video if you can It looks like there could be a couple of arguments from the pics but not clear
Steve_999
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 17:02) *
Post the video if you can It looks like there could be a couple of arguments from the pics but not clear


But, if you do, don't post it in the same way as your photos! 'Cos it won't work.
Biker111
Thanks for the advice, John U.K. and PASTMYBEST and Steve_999.

I will get onto Tinypic straight away!

I do have the video but cannot link it (the Borough of Camden has some outdated protocol where you need IE8 to watch their CCTV footage). I read somewhere that the video is copyrighted, however I could upload the video to YouTube for the forum and link under Fair Dealing. What do you think?
Biker111
OK, I used PhotoBucket instead, but I hope this will work:

http://s58.photobucket.com/user/istilllike...rt=9&page=1

Here's the YouTube link (I blurred the part where you can see vehicle regs, the rest has been left as-is):

https://youtu.be/jDYzK8PR_Js


And here's the GSV link (it's a little hard to see, but from previous posts I understand that some of you will know the location well):

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.519316,-0.1...#33;6m1!1e1


I'm sorry there's so much stuff to go through! And I appreciate you taking the time to look at this and advise - really, it makes a HUGE difference. Thanks!


Edit: Here are the updated embedded documents as suggested by a helpful member of the forums.








Steve_999
If you post images as advised here, people won't have to plough through some external site to read them.

You will be likely to get more responses that way.
Biker111
Thanks, Steve_999. I hope embedding the pictures in my posts doesn't make the thread too unwieldy! Here are the next ten...















OK. I've added the pictures of correspondence and the relevant evidence. The attachments of regulations and envelopes etc are online but I've not embedded them to make it a little easy on the reader.
PASTMYBEST
I wish you had posted the video when it was first asked for. I cannot see a win here, more so continuing could well be found vexatious by an adjudicator
and costs be awarded against you
Biker111
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 20 Jul 2016 - 19:30) *
I wish you had posted the video when it was first asked for. I cannot see a win here, more so continuing could well be found vexatious by an adjudicator
and costs be awarded against you



Thanks for your advice. Is that based on the documents as well as the video? And why would continuing to London Tribunals be vexatious?
Biker111
Southampton Row – London Tribunals

To follow up on this: I went on to London Tribunals and, in short, my appeal was granted because of inadequate signage.

I was surprised after browsing this forum that the entire process is quite different from what has been described so far. I suppose with the change from PATAS to London Tribunals some procedural things have changed. I went in for a personal hearing.

1) It was rather informal (as informal as you can be with a barrister/solicitor at an official hearing) and the door to the office was left open while the hearing was in progress. I was allowed to bring in a second person in (not a legal representative or witness, merely there for moral support).

2) No one from the Borough of Camden was present at the personal hearing. They do not have to be present, so there is no automatic “forfeit” if their rep doesn’t show up (which used to be the case with PATAS apparently?).

3) The adjudicator said they do not look at the evidence submitted by either party in advance of the hearing. We spent quite some time looking at both my and the Borough of Camden’s evidence, including CCTV footage. I brought in my own photographic evidence and it was duly considered.

4) The whole hearing took around half an hour.

So PASTMYBEST, any tips on recuperating costs from the Borough of Camden?

Any questions, PM me.
peterguk
QUOTE (Biker111 @ Sat, 1 Oct 2016 - 14:20) *
any tips on recuperating costs from the Borough of Camden?


The costs you can claim are only on limited grounds. Wholly unreasonable and vexatious in rejecting earlier challenges then failing to provide evidence to London Tribunals.

Does your case apply?
Earl Purple
It's about time all the London councils allowed motorcycles to use bus lanes.

But in Camden in particular there is a strong cyclist lobby against it.

Like it's motorcycles that put cyclists in jeopardy and not left-turning lorries.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.