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peterguk
OK, posting for friend of mine.

On 23rd May, he was unloading van at a customer's nearby shop. Parked on the Ecclesall Road. Before starting to unload, owner of shop gave friend a daily permit as he thought he should display whilst parked.

Friend came back to van to find parking warden writing ticket. Advised friend permit "not valid for Ecclesall Road, only surrounding streets."

PCN and Permit attached.

Best way forward?







Van was parked around 5m to left of this sign:





DancingDad
What's on the back of the permit pls? If anything?
What signs are there on street showing permit bay restrictions?
How does anyone know what the prefix means ?
StuartBu
deleted
peterguk
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:05) *
What's on the back of the permit pls? If anything?


Back of permit is blank.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:05) *
What signs are there on street showing permit bay restrictions?


There were no other signs in the vicinity of the van, however there may well be further up or down the road.
DancingDad
Alright.
Having now seen signs, clearly P&D only and that is the contravention cited.

Sorry but seems shopkeeper and friend were confused on using permit instead of P&D.
We will need something technical to beat this one.

Could you link us to where on streetview, Ecclesall is a long road.
StuartBu
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 12:32) *
Alright.
Having now seen signs, clearly P&D only and that is the contravention cited.

Sorry but seems shopkeeper and friend were confused on using permit instead of P&D.
We will need something technical to beat this one.


But is loading/unloading not allowed in a P+D Bay without paying ( Google seems to suggest it is/can be ) ...in this case other than 07:30-09:30 +16:00-18:30 as shown on the sign . If so would that not supercede the wrongly used permit ?
Steve_999
From #1 - ". . . he was unloading van . . ."

PCN issued outside "No Loading" restriction hours.

Claim exemption?
DancingDad
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:37) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 12:32) *
Alright.
Having now seen signs, clearly P&D only and that is the contravention cited.

Sorry but seems shopkeeper and friend were confused on using permit instead of P&D.
We will need something technical to beat this one.


But is loading/unloading not allowed in a P+D Bay without paying ( Google seems to suggest it is/can be ) ...in this case other than 07:30-09:30 +16:00-18:30 as shown on the sign . If so would that not supercede the wrongly used permit ?


You are right.
I was fixating on the permit.
Peer review is wonderful smile.gif

Whether or not loading is allowed depends on Traffic Order, many do include as an exemption.
But is certainly an assumption that could be put forward.
peterguk
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:32) *
Could you link us to where on streetview, Ecclesall is a long road.


GSV

Was parked in bay on right.
StuartBu
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:37) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 12:32) *
Alright.
Having now seen signs, clearly P&D only and that is the contravention cited.

Sorry but seems shopkeeper and friend were confused on using permit instead of P&D.
We will need something technical to beat this one.


But is loading/unloading not allowed in a P+D Bay without paying ( Google seems to suggest it is/can be ) ...in this case other than 07:30-09:30 +16:00-18:30 as shown on the sign . If so would that not supercede the wrongly used permit ?


You are right.
I was fixating on the permit.
Peer review is wonderful smile.gif

Whether or not loading is allowed depends on Traffic Order, many do include as an exemption.
But is certainly an assumption that could be put forward.


The way I looked at it was that if the sign says when loading/unloading is NOT allowed then the reasonable assumption would be that at other times it MUST BE allowed so the question is can you do it without paying and would anyone consider the need to pay if they were loading/unloading then moving off.
SX4
6 mins observation time before PCN printed so no loading was observed in that time .
But in my local area 5 mins given for cars and 10 mins given for commercial vehicles (vans) to ascertain if loading/ unloading is taking place , it depends how long friend was in shop and if he was in the process of loading or chatting .
So if driver was in shop chatting for 10 mins CEO would think vehicle with no p&D ticket displayed and issue .
It depends on which councils allow loading on pay and display bays
StuartBu
QUOTE (SX4 @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 13:05) *
6 mins observation time before PCN printed so no loading was observed in that time .
But in my local area 5 mins given for cars and 10 mins given for commercial vehicles (vans) to ascertain if loading/ unloading is taking place , it depends how long friend was in shop and if he was in the process of loading or chatting .
So if driver was in shop chatting for 10 mins CEO would think vehicle with no p&D ticket displayed and issue .
It depends on which councils allow loading on pay and display bays


[1]I'm not sure that we actually know the CEO saw no unloading .He/she could have been "observing" from somewhere he/she couldn't be seen by the Van Driver .Perhaps he did see some unloading but either chose to ignore that or it didnt occur to him what was taking place .
All we know is that he was seen when writing out the PCN and has stated that the observation time was 6 minutes .

[2] Where are you getting the 10 minutes chatting from?

Perhaps OP could clarify is there were any delays in the unloading ...if goods being received need to be checked by the recipient for damage or deficiences does that count as part of the "unloading"
DancingDad
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Wed, 25 May 2016 - 15:48) *
........Perhaps OP could clarify is there were any delays in the unloading ...if goods being received need to be checked by the recipient for damage or deficiences does that count as part of the "unloading"


Yes, time to check goods, paperwork, even to deliver to a specific point if needed such as freezer.
All acceptable as part of loading process.
Stock room would be normally accepted but not stacking on shelves.

I'm thinking challenge along lines of
Arrived to unload goods (description?)
Shopkeeper gave visitors permit and driver displayed without thinking even though unloading.
Realised it wasn't valid when saw the CEO/PCN
However please apply the loading exemption.
Copy of delivery note/invoice/whatever attached.
Ask for copy of CEO notes and relevant Traffic Order should they reject.
peterguk
Spioken to driver.

He was delivering clothing to local shop across the road.

One physical load of clothing. Shop owner spent a few mins checking delivery, item by item, being delivered against delivery note. Was parked for total 10-15 minutes.
DancingDad
QUOTE
Article 16(10) In any other case the vehicle is for the purpose of delivering or collecting goods or merchandise, including, so far as a Bank is concerned, cash or other valuables or valuable securities, or loading or unloading the vehicle at premises adjacent to the parking place in which the vehicle is waiting and the vehicle not being a goods vehicle does not wait for such purpose for more than thirty minutes or for such longer period as a civil enforcement officer may authorise or, being a goods vehicle does not wait for more than thirty minutes or such longer period as aforesaid if it is in any part of a parking bay;

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/TRO...ffield/FD60.pdf

Which I don't know is the right traffic order but would seem to show that Sheffield has a policy of allowing parking for loading/unloading without payment.

So tell the tale, supply proof of delivery and hopefully, should be accepted.
Ask for applicable TRO and CEO notes should they reject
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