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welsh wizard
Hi Last October I was stopped at 92 on the m5 ( I know, I know! ) I had 9 points on my licence

2 weeks later I received a fix penalty, thinking that was lucky, but after paying it, the money was refunded and I was told because you have 9 points etc etc

May 1st 2016 I get a single justice procedure notice about the offense, sent out 6 months to the day of the offense, Reading through the documents it transpires that they have got my registration incorrect on the court documents and on the police statement, I signed the statement by the police at the time of the offense, whilst sat in the dark in the back of a police car without reading glasses, my car was directly in front of the police fully lit bu its headlight.

Now then.. I cant plead guilty since I cannot agree with the charges as set out,i.e I was not driving the car specified, so what happens now, are the Police out of time under the 6 month rule?m can they say well you signed it at the road side therefore accepting that the police officer should have gone to spec savers, or should I plead guilty and accept it as a Admin error,

Any advice would be appreciated
peterguk
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.
welsh wizard
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:34) *
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.


So when asked "were you driving this vehicle " I cant say" yes"
NewJudge
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:04) *
...are the Police out of time under the 6 month rule?


No they are not. The "six month rule" only stipulates that proceedings must begin within that time (and in your case they have), not that they must be concluded. If the prosecution wishes to amend any details of the charge as part of their case they are entitled to do so up to the closing of their evidence in court.

Your choice is quite clear - you can either:

- Plead guilty, be awarded points (which will take you to at least 12) and face a "totting up" ban. If you want to plead "exceptional hardship" to avoid or reduce the ban you will have to decline the single justice procedure offer and ask for a full court hearing. By pleading guilty you are accepting the prosecution's case in full and cannot question any aspect of their evidence.

- Plead Not guitly, opt for a trial, and seek an acquittal on the basis you describe. If you are convicted you face a higher fine (you lose your one third discount for a guilty plea) and costs of at leaast £300, possibly as much as £600.
The Rookie
It would be hard to claim you are in some way disadvantaged by the incorrect VRM, as you were in the car when it was stopped and we'll know what the allegation refers to, as such I doubt very much whether a bench will conclude that the facts can't be amended.

You wouldn't normally be asked if you were driving that car, just whether you plead guilty or not guilty.....why would they?
Jlc
Indeed, you should be concentrating on your exceptional hardship plea if you want to reduce the 6 months ban.
welsh wizard
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:18) *
Indeed, you should be concentrating on your exceptional hardship plea if you want to reduce the 6 months ban.


Well I am now down to 3 points and I am currently on the UK transplant list, all provable so I am hoping this will help....
Jlc
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:18) *
Indeed, you should be concentrating on your exceptional hardship plea if you want to reduce the 6 months ban.


Well I am now down to 3 points and I am currently on the UK transplant list, all provable so I am hoping this will help....

Points, for totting, are based on the dates of the offences - so having 'dropped off' does not help you.

You would need to show your reason to continue to drive was 'exceptional' - without knowing the context it's hard to comment further. Normally the impact on others carries more weight but you would have to show that any hardship was beyond what was reasonable foreseeable. (There will be people on the aforementioned list that cannot drive anyway for example)
welsh wizard
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:39) *
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:18) *
Indeed, you should be concentrating on your exceptional hardship plea if you want to reduce the 6 months ban.


Well I am now down to 3 points and I am currently on the UK transplant list, all provable so I am hoping this will help....

Points, for totting, are based on the dates of the offences - so having 'dropped off' does not help you.

You would need to show your reason to continue to drive was 'exceptional' - without knowing the context it's hard to comment further. Normally the impact on others carries more weight but you would have to show that any hardship was beyond what was reasonable foreseeable. (There will be people on the aforementioned list that cannot drive anyway for example)


I am technically waiting for a liver transplant and would need to get to QE2 in birmingham within 3 hours of a call I live in Hereford no matter what time of the day or night
The Rookie
That, of itself, is meaningless (and you are either on the list or not, you can't 'technically' be on a list), what would happen to your car while in hospital and as you probably won't be allowed to drive home, how would that happen? Be prepared for these sorts of questions.
welsh wizard
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 16:46) *
That, of itself, is meaningless (and you are either on the list or not, you can't 'technically' be on a list), what would happen to your car while in hospital and as you probably won't be allowed to drive home, how would that happen? Be prepared for these sorts of questions.


I am on the list, the procedure is I would drive to hospital and members of family would pick the car up, there is even a dedicated parking space at QE2 for that very reason, I would be in for maybe 2 weeks after liver transplant maybe more, but getting to the hospital as promptly as possible for the pre op tests etc, I travel the country with work but never more than a few hours from Birmingham
Jlc
Then angle the bench would need to consider is whether this is exceptional. What about people that cannot drive? If there is no realistic alternative and the circumstances are considered exceptional then you may be able to keep your licence.

So, could you use a taxi for example?
welsh wizard
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 17:14) *
Then angle the bench would need to consider is whether this is exceptional. What about people that cannot drive? If there is no realistic alternative and the circumstances are considered exceptional then you may be able to keep your licence.

So, could you use a taxi for example?


Well I am a couple of hours from birmingham and live in rural herefordshire, the nearest cab company is in hereford 22 miles away, and the quicker I can get there the better, I always carry an overnight bag in the car, just in case, the quicker I get there the quicker and more successful the procedure should be there
Jlc
Sure, this is the sort of information you'd need to prepare. Your circumstances are not the norm but never assume. Do not give the impression that your circumstances entitle you to appear to flout limits.
welsh wizard
so is the consensus is go guilty with a hearing, mention the bit about there are a few facts incorrect the plead a bit?

I ju I called the court help line they said just amend the document pointing out the errors and send them back and plead not guilty..............
Jlc
The court help line does not give legal advice. You need a defence to plead not guilty or you face a potentially large costs bill and trial.

You need to tell the court that the single justice procedure is not appropriate here as an exceptional hardship plea is involved. (The SJ procedure is sentencing via a single magistrate and is appropriate for 'simple' guilty cases)
southpaw82
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 15:19) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:34) *
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.


So when asked "were you driving this vehicle " I cant say" yes"

Except they won't ask you. The offence is driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road in excess of the speed limit. That's what you did. It doesn't matter which vehicle in particular it was.
welsh wizard
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 17:53) *
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 15:19) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:34) *
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.


So when asked "were you driving this vehicle " I cant say" yes"

Except they won't ask you. The offence is driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road in excess of the speed limit. That's what you did. It doesn't matter which vehicle in particular it was.


Sorry I assumed that they would say "were you driving blah blah" and confirm that you still go guilty, thats what I meant, Si will do the form ask for a hearing and take lots of supporting stuff with me on the hardship from, I might even take my blue badge to show restricted mobilty
southpaw82
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 18:12) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 17:53) *
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 15:19) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:34) *
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.


So when asked "were you driving this vehicle " I cant say" yes"

Except they won't ask you. The offence is driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road in excess of the speed limit. That's what you did. It doesn't matter which vehicle in particular it was.


Sorry I assumed that they would say "were you driving blah blah" and confirm that you still go guilty, thats what I meant, Si will do the form ask for a hearing and take lots of supporting stuff with me on the hardship from, I might even take my blue badge to show restricted mobilty

Your registration number will probably be in the statement of facts but this is irrelevant to the charge and since it makes no difference to the outcome there's little point in making an issue of it, though correct it if you wish.
welsh wizard
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 18:29) *
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 18:12) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 17:53) *
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 15:19) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 14:34) *
Error in the reg. no. makes no difference to the proceedings.


So when asked "were you driving this vehicle " I cant say" yes"

Except they won't ask you. The offence is driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road in excess of the speed limit. That's what you did. It doesn't matter which vehicle in particular it was.


Sorry I assumed that they would say "were you driving blah blah" and confirm that you still go guilty, thats what I meant, Si will do the form ask for a hearing and take lots of supporting stuff with me on the hardship from, I might even take my blue badge to show restricted mobilty

Your registration number will probably be in the statement of facts but this is irrelevant to the charge and since it makes no difference to the outcome there's little point in making an issue of it, though correct it if you wish.

we shall wait and see how I get on then, time to fill some forms in
welsh wizard
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 13 May 2016 - 17:21) *
Sure, this is the sort of information you'd need to prepare. Your circumstances are not the norm but never assume. Do not give the impression that your circumstances entitle you to appear to flout limits.



I felt so stupid, since being diagnosed my points have been dropping off nicely, one night drive down a slip at 9pm and 0.5 miles later I am on the hard shoulder talking to a police man! the previous 2 hrs I had driven through all the back lanes well within the limit
Bipolar
Were you on the transplant list when the police stop you? Be prepared for a good answer to "If you were on 9 points and your licence was so important for your transplant why did you break the limit?".
welsh wizard
QUOTE (Bipolar @ Sat, 14 May 2016 - 01:26) *
Were you on the transplant list when the police stop you? Be prepared for a good answer to "If you were on 9 points and your licence was so important for your transplant why did you break the limit?".


Yes, it was just a stupid moment on a open motorway, I agree its stipud and will be the first to admit that
NewJudge
Yes it's a question that may be asked and it may help explain why the offence was committed. But it does not contribute to determining what is "exceptional hardship".
welsh wizard
I have just spoken to a legal help line who said " you should not plead guilty if the VRN is wrong because what happens if in the future the vehicle that the VRN belongs to is found to be used in a crime and you have admitted driving it"
southpaw82
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Mon, 16 May 2016 - 16:46) *
I have just spoken to a legal help line who said " you should not plead guilty if the VRN is wrong because what happens if in the future the vehicle that the VRN belongs to is found to be used in a crime and you have admitted driving it"

The legal help line are on crack. Did you speak to a lawyer or was it the cleaner?

Either way, take their advice or ours, it makes no difference to anyone but you.
Jlc
That's the funniest thing I've heard today!

Mwwwaaahhhahahahhhaa!
Bipolar
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Mon, 16 May 2016 - 16:46) *
I have just spoken to a legal help line who said " you should not plead guilty if the VRN is wrong because what happens if in the future the vehicle that the VRN belongs to is found to be used in a crime and you have admitted driving it"

It would probably be worth speaking to a specialist motoring solicitor if you want legal advice. The problem is that you're speaking to someone who spends most of their time advising people who want to move their garden fence or return some dodgy milk to Tesco. They're vanishingly unlikely to be prepared to stand in court and tell you that advice, which is where you're going.

If you tell us where in the country you are we can probably recommend a good motoring solicitor.
peterguk
QUOTE (welsh wizard @ Mon, 16 May 2016 - 16:46) *
I have just spoken to a legal help line who said " you should not plead guilty if the VRN is wrong because what happens if in the future the vehicle that the VRN belongs to is found to be used in a crime and you have admitted driving it"


For the benefit of anyone needing motoring legal advice in the future, please tell us which help in you called.
The Rookie
Did the legal advice line mention how on earth a record of pleading guilty to speeding would then magically appear on some database and include the VRM (which wouldn't routinely be recorded)....or were they making it up as they went along?
welsh wizard
its a legal help line that we get as a "benefit" from work, they seemed genuine enough but as you say they were a bit vague, I have pleaded guilty but have asked for a hearing not the single justice route, so we shall see what happens
welsh wizard
Well Just walked out of court and................. exceptional hardship accepted and fines and cost £390 no ban 12 points on my licence for the next few week anyway then down to 9.. thank you fir the constructive comments
nosferatu1001
Phew! Good result.
Jlc
Well done, take it steady out there. (You can't use the same reasons again for 3 years)
The Rookie
Good result, well done.

Noting that being on 9 instead of 12 is no real help, you have to drive like Morgan Freeman* for a while.

*When he was driving for Miss Daisy.
welsh wizard
Morgan Freeman here I come, it was going so well getting my points down then a stupid 30 seconds so must bite the bullet andonce again thatnks for the support
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