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gbool
Hi,

Writing this on behalf of a friend. Said person sold a car in October. The car at the time was registered to him. When he sold the car, the liability wasnt transferred; as far as I understand, the V5 was sent but nothing came of it. Fast forward to today and he has had bailiffs (Collect Services) at his door demanding money for some PCNs on behalf of Brighton and Hove. Speaking to someone from the parking dept revealed that proof of transfer from the DVLA would result in the bailiffs being called off and the money being refunded. The DVLA were then called, who said if a V61 and a cover letter is sent, he will receive a letter confirming who was and wasnt the owner up till now; it would take 2-4 weeks to process though. Brighton council were then rung again after to see if action could be frozen until a DVLA reply is recieved, and he was transferred to the Duty Officer who then said that if the PCNs are with the bailiff then they will *not* transfer liability and he will have to seek legal advice; different advice to what was given before. The bailiffs are demanding £500 in a week. His personal situation is quite delicate at the moment making this all the more difficult a situation. I was wondering what options there are. Can an N244 be filed? Is there really no recourse that can be taken even when the DVLA show proof of keeper change?

There are a few issues as far as I understand;
- He would have (or should have) recieved letters before bailiff action which presumably weren't recieved or weren't responded to
- Whilst the DVLA process the V61, Collect are going to continue escalating action

He is quite difficult to deal with but it is essential this is sorted out as soon as possible. Can anyone shed any light on what the options actually are here?

Edit: Some further research reveals that a TE7 & TE9 can be submitted which will freeze the process and potentially reset it back to the council. From what I can see these are often rejected. Can anyone give any tips on the best way to fill out these forms and word them so as to maximise the chance of them being granted?
2cupsofcoffee
Lots of missing documentation - even if the original was a PCN on car, there should have been followups from council before missing bailiff documentation.

Was address on V5 correct before car was sold?
Has friend moved since then?
Does friend have a sales receipt/details of who car was sold to? Any other proof of sale?
Any more info on what the original PCNs were for/dates?
Did friend get follow up stuff from council but mistakenly ignored it because of sale?
gbool
Thanks for your quick reply, I'll answer your questions the best I can

QUOTE (2cupsofcoffee @ Fri, 29 Apr 2016 - 15:26) *
Lots of missing documentation - even if the original was a PCN on car, there should have been followups from council before missing bailiff documentation.

Was address on V5 correct before car was sold?
Has friend moved since then?
Does friend have a sales receipt/details of who car was sold to? Any other proof of sale?
Any more info on what the original PCNs were for/dates?
Did friend get follow up stuff from council but mistakenly ignored it because of sale?


His address and details were correct. According to the DVLA, the car is still in his name despite being sold 6 months ago.
He hasn't moved, they bailiffs are attending to his address as the DVLA still have the car registered to him
Aside from a hand written reciept and cancellation of insurance there is little else. Private cash sale on a cheap car. The DVLA have confirmed they are happy to transfer liability on reciept of the V61 form and provide dates
PCNs are for parking in a permit only zone and the dates are roughly after the car was sold

I believe he did receive letters which he ignored as he believed they would go away once the DVLA transferred liability.

I apologise for the lack of documentation / exact dates, I'm working on 2nd hand information here and I'll try to get everything I can. I've yet to have found another thread detailing on what happens when you get bailiffs on a PCN that isn't yours. The worry is as well that there may be more PCNs that haven't yet gone through to the bailiffs but soon will. He hasnt kept track of the council documentation and that has made everything 10x more difficult.
Enceladus
Did he receive Notice(s) of Enforcement in respect of each PCN. When? Or were these delivered today? He should have seven clear days to pay. Sundays and bank holidays are not clear days.

Right now I would ring the TEC. TEC phone = 0300-123 1059, 01604-619 450, open 09:00-16:00 Mon-Fri.
Please establish the date of issue of the bailiff's warrant(s)?
And the address against which they were authorised?
And whether or not they have ever been re-issued against his current address?
And when?
The PCN number(s) if you don't have them?

Don't try and ask for details of the PCNs. They won't know and they seem to take umbrage if asked.

Ask them to email the appropriate forms for each PCN. Witness Statement for most parking contraventions or a Statutory Declaration for moving traffic, with the applicable Out Of Time application. EG a bus lane will require a Statutory Declaration and Out Of Time.
gbool
Thanks, will ring TEC now. Hopefully will get thru before closing
2cupsofcoffee
QUOTE (gbool @ Fri, 29 Apr 2016 - 15:39) *
Thanks for your quick reply, I'll answer your questions the best I can

QUOTE (2cupsofcoffee @ Fri, 29 Apr 2016 - 15:26) *
Lots of missing documentation - even if the original was a PCN on car, there should have been followups from council before missing bailiff documentation.

Was address on V5 correct before car was sold?
Has friend moved since then?
Does friend have a sales receipt/details of who car was sold to? Any other proof of sale?
Any more info on what the original PCNs were for/dates?
Did friend get follow up stuff from council but mistakenly ignored it because of sale?


His address and details were correct. According to the DVLA, the car is still in his name despite being sold 6 months ago.
ok

He hasn't moved, they bailiffs are attending to his address as the DVLA still have the car registered to him
ok

Aside from a hand written reciept and cancellation of insurance there is little else. Private cash sale on a cheap car. The DVLA have confirmed they are happy to transfer liability on reciept of the V61 form and provide dates
can friend send copies of BOTH to both council and bailiffs - should ask council to put bailiffs on hold while this is sorted out and explain about the V61 etc. may not work, but can't hurt to ask

PCNs are for parking in a permit only zone and the dates are roughly after the car was sold
get friend to call council/TEC to find out how many/what dates/how many warrants etc

I believe he did receive letters which he ignored as he believed they would go away once the DVLA transferred liability.
oh, well - hopefully lesson learnt now

I apologise for the lack of documentation / exact dates, I'm working on 2nd hand information here and I'll try to get everything I can. I've yet to have found another thread detailing on what happens when you get bailiffs on a PCN that isn't yours. The worry is as well that there may be more PCNs that haven't yet gone through to the bailiffs but soon will. He hasnt kept track of the council documentation and that has made everything 10x more difficult.


NB: tell friend 1. do NOT let bailiffs in - they will say he has to, but not true. and 2. if friend has another car, make sure it is either locked away in garage or else parked on someone ELSE's private property - or else that will be clamped/towed

EDIT: cross-posted with Enceladus - do exactly what he said - he detailed it better.
hcandersen
Dates???

PCN, NTO, anything?

If the contravention pre-dates the sale, the the car is a red herring.

Dates???

PCN, NTO, anything?

If the contravention pre-dates the sale, then the car and ownership are a red herring.
gbool
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 09:25) *
Dates???

PCN, NTO, anything?

If the contravention pre-dates the sale, the the car is a red herring.

Dates???

PCN, NTO, anything?

If the contravention pre-dates the sale, then the car and ownership are a red herring.


Contraventions do not pre-date sale, unfortunately I don't have copies of the paperwork. I'm emailing B&H council on his behalf to request PCN details logged with the car so that I can fill out TE7s +TE9s for bailiff ones and appeal / freeze any that are not currently with the bailiff. Does anyone have any advice for the TE7s/TE9s? From what I see they are often rejected and specific concise wording is crucial. I'm also filling out a V61 which should yeild DVLA confirmation in 2-4 weeks. Council have already confirmed they will not hold off on bailiff action whilst this is being done however they will be obliged to once TE7/9s are submitted.

Due to the potential amount of PCNs with the bailiff it's essential that the TE7/9s are effective as the cost of filing multiple N244s will be prohibitive.
Neil B
QUOTE (gbool @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 15:28) *
so that I can fill out TE7s +TE9s for bailiff ones. Does anyone have any advice for the TE7s/TE9s?


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but based on what you've told us you can't file TEs. There are simply no available grounds.
QUOTE (gbool @ Fri, 29 Apr 2016 - 15:39) *
I believe he did receive letters which he ignored as he believed they would go away once the DVLA transferred liability.


You need to establish exactly what he received and if he took any action at all.
DancingDad
QUOTE
I believe he did receive letters which he ignored as he believed they would go away once the DVLA transferred liability.
oh, well - hopefully lesson learnt now


Which makes the TE7 the first hurdle. There is not a ground "I ignored the notices" and we cannot suggest lying. It is a criminal offence to make a false declaration.
And also makes requesting an out of time (TE9) difficult.
It's not even as though mate had changed address, you would have to be talking about claiming that multiple notices failed to arrive.
Which does strain credibility.

Did he send anything to council when the notices arrived? Even a simple "The car does not belong to me"

At the moment, it seems that you are reliant on both DVLA and council.
The first to process the V61 ASAP.
The second that Brighton will honour the late notification.
Unfortunately they do not have to do so, the process can march on and penalise the innocent who miss deadlines.

How delicate is his situation (not in detail), any chance of claiming that he was incapable of managing his own affairs at the time?
Neil B
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 15:52) *
How delicate is his situation (not in detail), any chance of claiming that he was incapable of managing his own affairs at the time?

I was thinking that.
Apart from anything else, if he can be shown to be 'vulnerable' I believe the bailiff can't enforce (?)

We can refer you to specialist advice on this area.
gbool
I thought there were grounds for not being the owner of the car, must have been a different form I was thinking of. Situation is illness with his family, so potentially yes. The bailiffs are asking for £609 which I work out to mean there are two PCNs with them. I'm not sure if the letters went to his house or his mums, if the letters went to his mums house would that be grounds for appeal? (If the car was registered there and he lived at a different address)

From what I understand he appealed one of them stating that he wasnt the owner and it was rejected
Enceladus
QUOTE (gbool @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 16:12) *
I thought there were grounds for not being the owner of the car, must have been a different form I was thinking of. Situation is illness with his family, so potentially yes. The bailiffs are asking for £609 which I work out to mean there are two PCNs with them. I'm not sure if the letters went to his house or his mums, if the letters went to his mums house would that be grounds for appeal? (If the car was registered there and he lived at a different address)

From what I understand he appealed one of them stating that he wasnt the owner and it was rejected


I struggle to get to £609? Do you know what the alleged contraventions are? The bailiff might be trying it on, happens.

You need to establish the facts and pull this into a chronology in reverse order. So a bailiff visited, when exactly? What did he leave, 2 x Notices of Enforcement maybe?
If you can get the bailiff notices then please post up scrubbed scans.
And so on.
Were any Orders For Recovery received, these would have the Northampton County Court stamp?
If yes, when exactly and what was done with them?
Were any Charge Certificates received? What dates?
Were there any Notices to Owner or post PCNs received?
If yes, what are the dates and were challenges submitted to the council?

The DVLA only record the Registered Keeper details. They don't have any power to transfer liability for any form of penalty. Only the Enforcement Authority can do that, in this case the Council.

OK. I see how to get to £609.
2 x £70 - higher rate PCNs
2 x £35 - Charge Cert surcharges
2 x £7 - Court registration
2 x £75 - Compliance stage fee Bailiff (Notices Of Enforcment)
1 x £235 - Bailiff enforcement stage fee

Total £609

The question still stands. Did he receive any Notices Of Enforcement from the bailiff? When exactly? They should have given him seven clear days to pay before they can visit and claim the £235.
hcandersen
I'm not certain where this speculation is getting your friend.

You must establish the facts. What notices, where sent, were they received? You suggested that he corresponded with the authority, but do you know this?

As regards the law, at this stage you can only argue that the key notices were not received. Some notices relate to the contravention while other relate to process. At present it is too late to argue the contravention, only process matters. We might get back to the contravention, but we're not there.

If your friend did not receive the Orders for Recovery in relation to the PCNs (and by receive I mean were they delivered to the address of the registered keeper and was he capable of dealing with them at that time) then you have a strong case regarding process. At this stage NTOs, representations and Charge Certificates don't matter, it's the Orders for Recovery which are the key. They would normally be sent approx. 3-4 months after the contravention so if the contravention was after October 2015 then we're not going back to the Flood, we're looking within the last 2 months or so.
Enceladus
Non receipt of the Orders for Recovery is only a reason to help support an "extension of time" on an Out Of Time application. The Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration, we don't know which applies, must use one of the grounds permitted and non-receipt of the OFR is not one of them.

The TEC will almost certainly reject if non-receipt of the OFR it is the only reason given on the OOT, a judge is usually more sympathetic. And that will cost £100 per PCN to get before a judge.

So my advice still stands. The OP can't submit anything, assuming they can do so lawfully, to the court until Tuesday. So please spend some time garnering the facts and put them into a reverse chronology. If it transpires that he hasn't had Notices of Enforcement with 7 clear days notice then complain in writing to the bailiff and the council and demand that they re-serve the notices correctly and rescind the £235. Sundays and bank holidays are not clear days.

If there are no Notices To Owner or postal PCNs, once again we don't know which applies, then that is a ground that can be used on the Witness Statement or Statutory Declarations which you should submit as soon as possible and certainly before 4pm on Tuesday.

If there were NTOs and/or postal PCNS and these were challenged within the permitted timeframe but no response was received then this is also a valid ground to submit a WS or SD as the case may be.
gbool
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 18:53) *
Non receipt of the Orders for Recovery is only a reason to help support an "extension of time" on an Out Of Time application. The Witness Statement or Statutory Declaration, we don't know which applies, must use one of the grounds permitted and non-receipt of the OFR is not one of them.

The TEC will almost certainly reject if non-receipt of the OFR it is the only reason given on the OOT, a judge is usually more sympathetic. And that will cost £100 per PCN to get before a judge.

So my advice still stands. The OP can't submit anything, assuming they can do so lawfully, to the court until Tuesday. So please spend some time garnering the facts and put them into a reverse chronology. If it transpires that he hasn't had Notices of Enforcement with 7 clear days notice then complain in writing to the bailiff and the council and demand that they re-serve the notices correctly and rescind the £235. Sundays and bank holidays are not clear days.

If there are no Notices To Owner or postal PCNs, once again we don't know which applies, then that is a ground that can be used on the Witness Statement or Statutory Declarations which you should submit as soon as possible and certainly before 4pm on Tuesday.

If there were NTOs and/or postal PCNS and these were challenged within the permitted timeframe but no response was received then this is also a valid ground to submit a WS or SD as the case may be.



So far it seems the notice of enforcement was served well in time, I have attached two pieces of bailiff documentation below and I have asked for anything else he may have. I have also asked about whether he challenged them. If it transpires that no NTO was received, will that still not be automatically denied by the council? Surely they will just say they did send it and it will progress to needing an N244 anyway? Does the N244 fee get refunded if the judge sides with us?

Again I really do apologise for the lack of info so far, I know I haven't given anyone here much to work with and I really appreciate the help given so far. I will get as much info posted up as possible. In the meanwhile here are the two bailiff notices I have managed to get.

hcandersen
But it's where we start surely and then work back.

No OfR provides grounds for OOT but then as you say consideration has to be given to what grounds. Receipt or non-receipt of an OfR is also strongly indicative that other notices might or might not have been sent correctly.

OP, over to you.
gbool
Will try to find out if OfR was received. If it wasn't and we put that down as a reason, what are the chances of it actually being accepted? As surely it will be his word vs council?
Enceladus
QUOTE (gbool @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 19:13) *
So far it seems the notice of enforcement was served well in time, I have attached two pieces of bailiff documentation below and I have asked for anything else he may have. I have also asked about whether he challenged them. If it transpires that no NTO was received, will that still not be automatically denied by the council? Surely they will just say they did send it and it will progress to needing an N244 anyway? Does the N244 fee get refunded if the judge sides with us?

Again I really do apologise for the lack of info so far, I know I haven't given anyone here much to work with and I really appreciate the help given so far. I will get as much info posted up as possible. In the meanwhile here are the two bailiff notices I have managed to get.

I am not happy that either of those letters are a compliant Notice Of Enforcement.

AIUI there should be a compliant 'Notice Of Enforcement' for each warrant authorised by the Traffic Enforcement Centre. These notices are issued by the bailiff (enforcement agent) when they are instructed by the Council. And each notice should give the addressee seven clear days to pay up. Sundays and bank holidays are not counted as clear days.

The bailiff can charge a 'Compliance Stage' fee of £75 per Notice and only once per Notice.
The bailiff cannot charge the £235 "Enforcement Stage' fee until they visit the debtor's address to enforce the Notices. This can only be done once the seven clear days have expired. The fee can only be charged once no matter how many PCNs they are trying to enforce. And only once no matter how many times they have to visit.

It's possible the bailiff is trying it on. Or the bailiff's warrants are against some other address. Or there are previous letters from the bailiff which you have not shown us.

Where there is a messy bailiff situation I always recommend contacting Bailiff Advice Online. Marshal all the facts into a chronology and ask them how to deal with the bailiff. They will charge a small fee but well worth it. They are consistently recommended on this forum and others. PePiPoo don't get any of the fee. They can help you with a complaint to the Council as principals and the bailiff as agent concerning abuse of process in respect of the Notices of Enforcement if none have been served. However that only buys time until the Notices are re-served. And only deals with the £235.

What you now need to establish is whether or not any Order for Recovery were received and what happened to them? And whether or not any Notices To Owner or postal PCNs were received and what was done? Ideally you want to get Witness Statements and/or Statutory Declarations with Out Of Time applications submitted on or before Tuesday.

My advice would be to try and get hold of every bit of paper there is to do with this. Or photocopies. Scrub and scan everything and post it up here. Scrub means obscure or redact your name & address, the PCN numbers and the vehicle reg. Please leave absolutely everything else visible.

Photos are fine if you have no scanner. Please make sure the images are flat and well lit. Use close-up / macro mode if available. Try and have the images the right way up, some of the members won't even try and read them if they are sideways. Don't try and re-size the images, let the forum software handle that.

Some judiciously cut up pieces of paper, eg post-it note, are good for obscuring. Please leave visible all time, date, location and council/enforcement authority info.

Please open a free of charge basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com or dropbox.com or similar. I use tinypic without complaint. There are numerous others. Log in and upload your scans, photos etc. Copy and paste the provided IMG links into your posts on here. Et voilà!
Bailiff Advice
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 21:46) *
I am not happy that either of those letters are a compliant Notice Of Enforcement.


Where there is a messy bailiff situation I always recommend contacting Bailiff Advice Online. Marshal all the facts into a chronology and ask them how to deal with the bailiff. They will charge a small fee but well worth it. They are consistently recommended on this forum and others. PePiPoo don't get any of the fee. They can help you with a complaint to the Council as principals and the bailiff as agent concerning abuse of process in respect of the Notices of Enforcement if none have been served. However that only buys time until the Notices are re-served. And only deals with the £235.


Enceladus, your kind words above are very much appreciated. Thank you.

Can I just correct you about the letters supposedly not being compliant Notices of Enforcement:

In 2014, the regulations outlined that specific statutory notices must be provided to debtors. The layout and wording must be in accordance with the legislation. Where there is a problem with the regulations is that they do not at present (and hopefully this will soon change) provide a statutory notice that should be left at the debtors premises to advise that a visit had been made and no response could be obtained (i.e the debtor or his family were at work etc). Accordingly, each company have introduced their own 'advisory' notice that informs the debtor that a visit had taken place. The two documents exhibited above are merely 'advisory' notes.

The actual statutory notices (and a description of each one) can be found on the following page from my website:

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/new-baili...atutory-notices

QUOTE (gbool @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 20:44) *
Will try to find out if OfR was received.

If it wasn't and we put that down as a reason, what are the chances of it actually being accepted? As surely it will be his word vs council?


The be really honest, the chances of them being accepted is not too high. However, please do post back with as much background information as possible.
gbool
Hi, sorry I let this thread die. Thought it was due an update. I fell out of contact with the dude but I inputted the PCN codes into the B&H appeal system today and all of them are showing that they have been reset to NTO. This is after submitting TE7&9s on the grounds that the NTOs were not recieved due to his address changing, and as the car had been sold there was no V5 to update. I included a photocopied receipt of sale (handwritten private sale signed) as evidence. It's a relief that it seems to have been accepted. I have emailed the council to confirm and also asked if liability has been automatically transferred or if appeals will need to be put in.

I appreciate all the help and advice thats been given here. The council PCN process can be incredibly stressful particularly when you fall through the gaps in the process and the voluntary contributions from people on this forum are invaluable. I think it was partly luck that the OOTs were accepted as it seems often that they are not; with a total of 14 (!!) PCNs in question here it was essential that things did not progress to filing N244s.
Neil B
Where did we get to 14?

How many are indicating reset - all of them?

I advise you to phone TEC, first thing Tuesday, to check.
You will need to be armed with ALL of the PCN numbers.

Note: Officially you will need authority to speak for the debtor; an initial call from him will sort that.
Neil B
There are some iffy dichotomies here.
QUOTE (gbool @ Fri, 29 Apr 2016 - 15:39) *
His address and details were correct. - - -
He hasn't moved, - - -

I believe he did receive letters which he ignored as he believed they would go away once the DVLA transferred liability.

QUOTE (gbool @ Sat, 30 Apr 2016 - 16:12) *
From what I understand he appealed one of them stating that he wasnt the owner and it was rejected

QUOTE (gbool @ Sun, 29 May 2016 - 23:07) *
This is after submitting TE7&9s on the grounds that the NTOs were not recieved due to his address changing,

Can you explain?
gbool
He was away for an extended period, being quite difficult to communicate with I didnt really get a full handle of the situation. The vehicle was registered at his parents house, not his as that was where he was staying at the time

Going to phone TEC and check asap to confirm everything has gone through.
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