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Full Version: M25 Northbound towards M11 - Gantry didn't display NSL after 40 mph speed limit
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Peppipoo316
Hello Friends,

Long time lurker as a non-member but my first ever post here.

I was driving on M25 Northbound towards M11. There was a 40 mph speed limit displayed on the gantries for about couple of miles. The gantries following that weren't displaying anything. As an over-cautious driver I continued at 40 mph for about 2-3 miles on the second lane but almost all cars were whizzing past me at Motorway speed. At one point I was being overtaken and undertaken by faster drivers which prompted me to up the speed to 60 gradually for another few miles and to 70. The route ahead was clear with absolutely no congestion. Not even a single gantry was displaying restricted speed limit till I joined M11.

In my opinion, it looks like someone at traffic control forgot to remind drivers that the 40 mph restriction has been lifted with a NSL sign on the gantry. Is my understanding correct?
The Slithy Tove
It happens.

Were you really in lane 2 at 40, with everyone else doing ~70? Good grief!
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (The Slithy Tove @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 13:05) *
It happens.

Were you really in lane 2 at 40, with everyone else doing ~70? Good grief!


An embarrassing yes.
Jlc
Tricky one - the previous limit holds until a different limit is displayed (or NSL). But as the NSL of that road is 70 (for cars at least) then if there fails to be a 'repeaters' for a prescribed distance (which isn't that far) then one can assume the limit is NSL.
Kickaha
Have you got a ticket, or are you just being paranoid?
peterguk
QUOTE (Peppipoo316 @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 12:55) *
At one point I was being overtaken and undertaken by faster drivers


Cars are allowed in lane one, as well as lorries.
The Rookie
In fact if you aren't passing someone you should be in lane 1!
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 13:53) *
Tricky one - the previous limit holds until a different limit is displayed (or NSL). But as the NSL of that road is 70 (for cars at least) then if there fails to be a 'repeaters' for a prescribed distance (which isn't that far) then one can assume the limit is NSL.



Yes. This is why I was maintaining at 40 for 2-3 miles. By this distance, I passed about 5 gantries which had nothing and at one point in time vehicles started joining the motorway from slip road at high speed.

If previous speed limit holds good I am sure almost all the cars would have been caught. I was actually returning back home from Heathrow T4. The slip road from the roundabout that joins M25 from Heathrow has a 40 mph sign in front and within 300 meters joins the motorway which had no NSL sign. So if previous speed limit applies then any car through the slip road must maintain 40 mph which in this scenario wouldn't make sense. smile.gif

I checked every passing gantry and not even a single one had anything on them. Looks like only time well tell.

QUOTE (Kickaha @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 14:15) *
Have you got a ticket, or are you just being paranoid?


Just being paranoid as my license is just over 1 year old.

Edit: Just spoke to highways england. The person said the gantry must have displayed a NSL or an End sign. I am 100% certain that this wasn't the case. He said it could be a faulty gantry and if something like this happens, motorists are encouraged to give them a call around the time period (when it is safe to do so) so that they look into it and rectify the issue at the earliest.
outlook
Highways will NEVER admit that their super smart gantries are useless.

I've countless examples of them displaying strings of confusing signs that leave drivers with no idea what limit applies.

Actually, in fact, I may even have THIS particular incident on camera as I experienced the exact same thing on the M25 towards M11 on Saturday, heading C/W from around just after the M40 junction. Loads of 40 signs for no reason whatsoever (not even a message displaying a made up reason, they were blank) followed by no signs at all. Definitely no NSL sign. There was also a missing blank gantry in the middle of it all.

Was this VERY early Saturday morning, around 4-6AMish?
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (outlook @ Sun, 24 Apr 2016 - 07:25) *
Highways will NEVER admit that their super smart gantries are useless.

I've countless examples of them displaying strings of confusing signs that leave drivers with no idea what limit applies.

Actually, in fact, I may even have THIS particular incident on camera as I experienced the exact same thing on the M25 towards M11 on Saturday, heading C/W from around just after the M40 junction. Loads of 40 signs for no reason whatsoever (not even a message displaying a made up reason, they were blank) followed by no signs at all. Definitely no NSL sign. There was also a missing blank gantry in the middle of it all.

Was this VERY early Saturday morning, around 4-6AMish?


You were spot on. However for me it was Saturday morning around 09:20 in the same section of M25. There were absolutely no sign of any incident or traffic or congestion ahead. 40-40-40-40-40-40 and then blank-blank-blank throughout. 100% sure now that there was no NSL sign on even a single gantry to notify end of 40 mph restriction.

Please do keep the camera logs as evidence. Kindly do not delete it for another 15-20 days if that is possible. smile.gif
captain swoop
Maybe the restriction went off just after you passed the last gantry in the sequence, you might have missed it.
Why didn't you get back to the left? 40 in lane 2 for mile after mile could have got you some points anyway.
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sun, 24 Apr 2016 - 12:18) *
Maybe the restriction went off just after you passed the last gantry in the sequence, you might have missed it.
Why didn't you get back to the left? 40 in lane 2 for mile after mile could have got you some points anyway.


Highly unlikely as I was watching every single gantry.
I admit being silly about driving slow on Lane 2 out of the 4 lanes but there wasn't much of traffic. At least I wasn't holding any traffic or blocking anyone but that doesn't mean I was right to be on the 2nd lane.
outlook
I'll be sure to keep the footage!

Similar thing again today. Restriction with no end of it. In fact, most restrictions I drive through nowadays seem to have no NSL signs...

This restriction also had one of perhaps the most useless 'smart' gantry displays ever:



2 signs completely missing - what's the limit, given the speed limits aren't the same across the lanes? Or are the lanes closed? Who knows? (Turns out Lane 6 was actually closed)

On this gantry - random 30MPH restriction on the M4, despite the obstruction being on the M25 after the junction. Then the next gantry had the M4 on NSL and the M25 on 40MPH - it's all over the place!

Lane 5 of 6 pointlessly closed for a set of cones in Lane 6.

No NSL sign on the M25 after the restriction was lifted
Peppipoo316
Thanks very much outlook. Looks like Highways England are suffering from Short Term Memory Loss. smile.gif
Transit man
QUOTE (Peppipoo316 @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 14:55) *
Edit: Just spoke to highways england. The person said the gantry must have displayed a NSL or an End sign.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Obviously you spoke to someone who has read the rule book but never travelled on an M way! As a daily user of managed M ways I can assure you the lack of NSL signs are more obvious than the plethora of them.

AFAIAC, after passing a limit on a gantry, unless I can see the next one showing the same (or less) then I gravitate toward the speed I feel is correct for the situation, if I waited for a NSL I could end up travelling at 40 for miles, causing frustration to those around me, wait a minute, isn't that the opening point of this thread? biggrin.gif
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (Transit man @ Mon, 25 Apr 2016 - 12:44) *
QUOTE (Peppipoo316 @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 14:55) *
Edit: Just spoke to highways england. The person said the gantry must have displayed a NSL or an End sign.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Obviously you spoke to someone who has read the rule book but never travelled on an M way! As a daily user of managed M ways I can assure you the lack of NSL signs are more obvious than the plethora of them.

AFAIAC, after passing a limit on a gantry, unless I can see the next one showing the same (or less) then I gravitate toward the speed I feel is correct for the situation, if I waited for a NSL I could end up travelling at 40 for miles, causing frustration to those around me, wait a minute, isn't that the opening point of this thread? biggrin.gif


You are right. Should we continue at the same limit as displayed on the previous gantry or assume after passing subsequent blank gantries that the restriction was lifted? I was trying my best to stick to the limit but at one point it was obvious that we can get back to NSL. The drivers joining the MWAY from the slip road continues at NSL whilst the rest follows another speed. Sounds weird isn't it? smile.gif
Landshark
QUOTE (outlook @ Mon, 25 Apr 2016 - 07:04) *
I'll be sure to keep the footage!

Similar thing again today. Restriction with no end of it. In fact, most restrictions I drive through nowadays seem to have no NSL signs...

This restriction also had one of perhaps the most useless 'smart' gantry displays ever:



2 signs completely missing - what's the limit, given the speed limits aren't the same across the lanes? Or are the lanes closed? Who knows? (Turns out Lane 6 was actually closed)

On this gantry - random 30MPH restriction on the M4, despite the obstruction being on the M25 after the junction. Then the next gantry had the M4 on NSL and the M25 on 40MPH - it's all over the place!

Lane 5 of 6 pointlessly closed for a set of cones in Lane 6.

No NSL sign on the M25 after the restriction was lifted


I typed a long reply, but it seems to have vanished!!

Short reply, in your picture it's technically 2 carriageways as the left side is a dedicated slip to the M4 = speed is 30 mph, main carriageway = speed 50 mph. Confuses people no end!!

The RCC responsibility changes at J14, and I notice the difference (although manual sign setting is terrible both sides)

The M25 gantries are so old they are forever breaking, not working or getting stuck!!
outlook
Not sure what RCC means? Are you saying that half the signs on the same gantry are being set by different people? Or that the signs before and after the junction are being set by different people?

It would certainly explain a lot the lack of NSL restrictions sometimes if they're unaware of them.

I've seen different speeds on lanes before although in this case the 30MPH on the M4 side made didn't seem to make sense as it was clear (and had an NSL sign on the next gantry, before the split) yet the M25 was down to 1 lane and had a 50MPH limit. Just perplexing.

I'm not sure if there are cameras here (and if they are on if so) but I'd be interested to know the legal standpoint if you were to do 50MPH in lane 3 at that point, between the 30 and 50 signs.
Churchmouse
Haven't we been assured that any gantry mounted speed cameras are linked to the sign, so that it is impossible for the cameras to trigger without the speed limit being displayed? (Apologies for vague paraphrasing...)

--Churchmouse
Landshark
QUOTE (outlook @ Mon, 25 Apr 2016 - 23:23) *
Not sure what RCC means? Are you saying that half the signs on the same gantry are being set by different people? Or that the signs before and after the junction are being set by different people?

It would certainly explain a lot the lack of NSL restrictions sometimes if they're unaware of them.

I've seen different speeds on lanes before although in this case the 30MPH on the M4 side made didn't seem to make sense as it was clear (and had an NSL sign on the next gantry, before the split) yet the M25 was down to 1 lane and had a 50MPH limit. Just perplexing.

I'm not sure if there are cameras here (and if they are on if so) but I'd be interested to know the legal standpoint if you were to do 50MPH in lane 3 at that point, between the 30 and 50 signs.


Sorry, RCC is regional control Centre. Godstone cover the southern section up to J14 and South Mimms covers the North J14 and onwards. Godstone have been getting better at setting the NSL signals at the end of the roadworks (or though you get blank gantries between the red X and the NSL when the cones are out.

Regarding the picture, the speed limit in lane three is 30, as this is lane three of the dedicated slip. And 50 on the main carriageway. The small dotted line between the lanes in the middle of the picture denotes the separation. I still do not believe it's right to have the two limits at that point. There is a new HADECS 3 camera between J14 and J15 mounted on the side of the gantry. (No idea if it works or not!!!) And do not believe it covers this bit in the photo.
Peppipoo316
Looking at this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...05181&st=20, I am now worried if I will be caught despite sticking with the speed limit even after passing loads of blank gantries. Really don't want to be a victim for someone else's fault. ohmy.gif
DancingDad
QUOTE (Peppipoo316 @ Tue, 26 Apr 2016 - 14:26) *
Looking at this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...05181&st=20, I am now worried if I will be caught despite sticking with the speed limit even after passing loads of blank gantries. Really don't want to be a victim for someone else's fault. ohmy.gif

Hmmm, if you are doing the last posted speed on the gantries, you are not going to get caught.
May annoy a few other drivers but a speeding offence is not going to happen.

Realistically, if you are not happy with picking up speed until you see an NSL sign or distance is such that it should apply, stuff yourself over into the far left lane and hold to the speed you are comfortable with.

Slightly related.
They were having a laugh on M6 southbound between J7 and J6 this morning.... 60 on the gantries, then 50, then 60.
And couldn't make up their mind whether to use hard shoulder or not.
Peppipoo316
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 26 Apr 2016 - 15:20) *
QUOTE (Peppipoo316 @ Tue, 26 Apr 2016 - 14:26) *
Looking at this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...05181&st=20, I am now worried if I will be caught despite sticking with the speed limit even after passing loads of blank gantries. Really don't want to be a victim for someone else's fault. ohmy.gif

Hmmm, if you are doing the last posted speed on the gantries, you are not going to get caught.
May annoy a few other drivers but a speeding offence is not going to happen.

Realistically, if you are not happy with picking up speed until you see an NSL sign or distance is such that it should apply, stuff yourself over into the far left lane and hold to the speed you are comfortable with.

Slightly related.
They were having a laugh on M6 southbound between J7 and J6 this morning.... 60 on the gantries, then 50, then 60.
And couldn't make up their mind whether to use hard shoulder or not.


Thanks mate for those words of wisdom.

Aforementioned I was sticking with the speed limit last enforced for about 3 miles. By this distance, I had passed nearly 6-8 blank gantries. From that point onwards I gradually increased to 60 and then 70. Not even a single vehicle around was doing <50. There was no road works and hardly any traffic. There were also vehicles joining from slip road at good speed, so I applied common sense and increased the speed.
I didn't see anything flash but will be hard to spot as it was daytime. Fingers crossed.
Jlc
What other cars are doing isn't necessarily relevant - although there's potential for being out of kilter with them creates a 'hazard' in its own right.

But after travelling 1/2 mile or so without repeaters (or blank gantries) then one can quite rightly assume NSL is back in force.
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