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driver39
Hello,
I have a PCN from Hounslow council for Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited.

Location: STAINES ROAD J/W FULSTONE CLOSE

I am still within the discounted period where I would pay £65. If I appeal and fail it would be £130.

I query the layout of the YBJ - it does not seem to go up to the curb. Is this grounds for appeal?

The photos seem to suggest that there was space in front of the box junction when I entered it. The timings on the camera suggest that I was stopped from 18.28.45 until 18.29.06 (ie 21 seconds). At both time points there was enough space for my car in front of me.
I did not enter the box while there was another vehicle in it and there was enough space on the other side of the box when I went into it. I assume that I stalled the engine in the box. Is this grounds for appeal?


Do you suggest appealing or paying the £65 at this point?
Thanks



John U.K.
As usual, for best advice please post up the whole PCN (both sides)

Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.
STAGE 1 takes care of resizing. If you use Tinypic for Stage 2, on the left each image in Tinypic is a list of links. Highlight and copy the entire link 'for forums' from the list for each image, and paste each link into your post. Each copied and pasted link will embed a thumbnail link in your post.

Using the attachment method is not advised as it means quickly running out of attachment space.
Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.

Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.
driver39
Thanks -
I lost the paper copy. CAlled Council and they gave me the PCN number so I could view it on line. I have 6 days until discounted period (£65) runs out and am going away in 2 days from now so can't deal with it after that. Even if they were to send me another paper copy today I wouldn't get it in time.

Attachment shows all that is visible on the on-line PCN. There is no link to video evidence. Should I ask them to provide me with this?

I will try to upload photos but when I did so before using TinyPic I got an error message saying that forum would not accept the web links in my post.
driver39
Have found some pictures I took of PCN


PASTMYBEST
Your photos look like you may have a case, but it would almost certainly be rejected by the council, and require adjudication. If you don't have time then pay the discount
driver39
Google street view link

https://goo.gl/maps/hTTSG3tRkGp

Online PCN with time and date of contravention



Photo of box junction before I entered



Thanks Pastmybest

On what grounds would you say I have a case?
PASTMYBEST
Without going into all the exemptions and so on this is the regulation

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition
that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
My bold

There is a space in your lane when you enter the box, as such you do not have to stop (within the box) due to the presence of stationary vehicles, and no
contravention occurs
driver39
Thank you

If I wanted to quote that regulation where should I say it is published? Presumably it is a traffic act?

Does anyone have an opinion as to the chances of success if I appeal?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (driver39 @ Thu, 21 Apr 2016 - 13:52) *
Thank you

If I wanted to quote that regulation where should I say it is published? Presumably it is a traffic act?

Does anyone have an opinion as to the chances of success if I appeal?


Part 2 of schedule 19 of Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (as amended)
Incandescent
The law is clear that stopping in the box is only an offence if one has to because of stationary vehicles preventing exit from the box. However, if you stop in the box because a pedestrian or dog runs out, no offence is comitted. Similarly, if you stall the engine and have to restart, again, no offence.
It it were me, I'd appeal but it is your call.

Have you seen the video ?
driver39
Thanks.
no haven't seen the video. Have requested it on line but it says there is a delay in processing it.

I will ask council whether I can get an extension to the discout period until the video is available
silverfox60017
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Apr 2016 - 13:30) *
Without going into all the exemptions and so on this is the regulation

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition
that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
My bold

There is a space in your lane when you enter the box, as such you do not have to stop (within the box) due to the presence of stationary vehicles, and no
contravention occurs



What are the circumstances described in para 8?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (silverfox60017 @ Fri, 22 Apr 2016 - 22:13) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Apr 2016 - 13:30) *
Without going into all the exemptions and so on this is the regulation

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition
that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
My bold

There is a space in your lane when you enter the box, as such you do not have to stop (within the box) due to the presence of stationary vehicles, and no
contravention occurs



What are the circumstances described in para 8?


Totally irrelevant to you in this case. Don't wait for the video before making representations, DO NOT MISS THE DEADLINE

Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811

8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.

driver39
Thanks I think I will appeal

I'm confused about how the contravention (31J:Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited) fits in with Part 2 of schedule 19 of Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Are contraventions published anywhere?

Should my appeal only mention the fact that I did not enter the box junction when the exit was blocked or should I also query the layout of the box junction?
PASTMYBEST
Forget the layout. Tell them that you had a mechanical issue with the car, it stalled, It to you however long to restart then you carried on.
When you entered the box, as can be seen in the photographs, there was space available for you to exit.

For both these reasons, no contravention occurred so the PCN should be cancelled
Neil B
It's difficult to know timescales when you've obscured the PCN date?

I'd wait for the vid: I can't imagine any problem at VMPCN lasting long.

Also, in such a case where, personally, I'd be very confident of success, what is the necessity to appeal inside the 14 day window?

DO keep to the 28 day deadline though.
driver39
I'm confused about timescales.

Alleged contravention was on 31/3/16
Date on PCN is 6/4/16 but it was not received by post until 9/4/16.
I phoned council on 21/4/16 to check when discount period would finish and they said I had 6 days to pay the discounted rate or challenge.

Video evidence still not available.

I need to appeal or pay by end of tomorrow as I'll be away and might not have internet access after that.
PASTMYBEST
Appeal away on the grounds I said. As Neil say's quite a strong case. There is a tribunal ruling where the adjudicator say's some thing along the lines of

The regulations allow that a driver could stop in a YBJ to have a picnic providing he is not forced to stop by stationary vehicles

Edit Got the gist of it right at least.

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...14031218240.pdf

Bottom of page 2 top of page 3
silverfox60017
Following on from that, am i correct in saying that reading from 'But what of the 100th case......' that if i am crossing the YBJ and my exit is clear when i entered, if another vehicle overtakes me and pulls into 'my' space thus causing me to stop in the YBJ, then it is a defence that the council should accept and not issue a PCN?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (silverfox60017 @ Sat, 23 Apr 2016 - 23:22) *
Following on from that, am i correct in saying that reading from 'But what of the 100th case......' that if i am crossing the YBJ and my exit is clear when i entered, if another vehicle overtakes me and pulls into 'my' space thus causing me to stop in the YBJ, then it is a defence that the council should accept and not issue a PCN?


There another key case that covers that, but it's a subjective thing so not many councils will cancel, you almost invariably would have to go to adjudication
silverfox60017
PMB

Thanks, i thought it might be a grey area
driver39
Hello,

Further to the posts above, the council state that in the video evidence the vehicle can be seen indicating right while in the box junction then after being stationery in the box, the vehicle continues straight ahead. I have now seen the video evidence and it does appear that the vehicle enters the box junction with a clear exit straight ahead, but then stops in the box junction for approx 20 seconds and indicates right (presumably to go into the right hand lane), it then continues straight ahead.

Please can you tell me whether you believe this constitutes a contravention?

PASTMYBEST
Post up you representations and the notice of rejection
driver39
Thanks

I don't have a copy of the Representation as it was submitted to the Council using an online form. I did say in the Representation that I was appealing the decision based on the fact that my exit was clear when I entered the box junction.

The council responded to my submitted Representation by email as follows (redacted version)

"Dear XXX
Penalty Charge Notice Number (PCN): XXXX
Vehicle Registration Number: XXX
Thank you for your communication. Please take this automated response as confirmation that we have received your representation.
Your representation will be logged on our system and the PCN will remain on hold until we reply.
Please do not ignore any letters or notices regarding this.
The Council is required to respond to representations within certain statutory timescales (typically 56 days). Further information regarding these statutory timescales, as well as other useful information regarding parking, can be found at the following link: XXXX
If your communication is contesting a Penalty Charge Notice please note: If the discount period is applicable at the time your communication was received and your representation is unsuccessful the discount will be re-offered at the time we respond to you.
Regards"


I therefore expected a response to the Representation to state whether the representation was successful or unsuccessful but have never received such a response and have not received a Notice of Rejection.

The matter is complicated by the fact that I was not able to view the video evidence before I made the representation. I requested this several times but still did not receive it. I made this point in the representation. The Council then sent me a video copy of the evidence after I had made my representation and said that I had an extended period in which to appeal. I was travelling for work at this time so did not receive the video evidence or notification of the new deadline within which to appeal. As far as I was concerned I had made my representation without viewing the video evidence and was due a response to this.

Upon receiving the Recovery Order, I e-mailed the Council to say that I had not received a response to my Representation and they replied by e-mail to say that as far as they are concerned I did not make a Representation and that I must respond to the Recovery Order.

I have the Order of Recovery and I intend to return this to the Traffic Enforcement Centre stating that I made Representations but did not receive a Notice of Rejection.

I would like to know whether the fact that I was indicating right whilst in the box junction means that I am liable to pay the PCN even though my exit straight ahead was clear when I entered the box junction and I left the box junction in the same lane as I entered it.

Any advice on dealing with the council in terms of the fact that they have escalated this to a Recovery Order without sending me a Notice of Rejection would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help
PASTMYBEST
For a contravention to occur you need to enter and stop in the box junction because of stationary vehicles, so the right turn indicator does not mean anything
providing your route straight ahead was clear

You are correct in the filing of the witness statement. and when a new PCN is issued or the council applt to the adjudicator for direction, I would add a challenge re failure to consider
Neil B
Bit confused.
QUOTE (driver39 @ Mon, 5 Sep 2016 - 14:03) *
and have not received a Notice of Rejection.

So where/how did they say this >
QUOTE (driver39 @ Mon, 5 Sep 2016 - 10:07) *
Further to the posts above, the council state that
driver39
thanks Neil B,
I have not received a Notice of Rejection or a Notice of Appeal form in response to my Representation to the Council.

When I received the Recovery Order, I e-mailed the council to try to explain that I had not recevied a response to my Representation, as well as to say that I had not entered the box junction while my exit was blocked.

They replied to me by post to say that it was a contravention because I was indicating right while stopped in the box junction. They have also since e-mailed me as below to state that they did not consider my online Representation to be a Representation as I had made the point that I had not been able to view the video evidence as part of my Representation. Please note that they have selectively quoted from my Representation and have not included the full text where I state the grounds on which I appealed the PCN.


"Good morning,
As per our letter dated 25/08/2016 you need to follow the instructions on the Order for Recovery, which you have clearly received.

I have noted your comments however I would again point you to our letter dated 24/05/2016 in which you were given until 14/06/2016 to make Representations. Nothing was received between 24/05/2016 and 14/06/2016 and therefore a Representation was not made.

Your online communication dated 03/05/2016 was not classed as a Representation but was further contact from you indicating you could not view the CCTV footage. You clearly stated the following suggesting it was not actually a Representation:

“I requested to see the video evidence 2 weeks ago so that I could determine whether to appeal but this is still not available. I keep getting the following message:
View CCTV Evidence
There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later.
It is therefore impossible for me to determine whether to appeal but this now seems to be my only option”.

We then replied, sending you the footage by post, and allowing you a further extended period to either submit Representations (again demonstrating we had not yet received any) or to pay the discounted amount.

No further correspondence will be entered in to outside of the Statutory process.

Kind Regards"


I would argue that they acknowledged my Representation initially but then did not respond to it. I had to make the representation when I did as I was away working for some time after the 3rd May and was concerned that if I didn't appeal then I wouldn't meet any future deadlines. If the video evidence had been available earlier, there would have been no need for them to have to send it to me and extend the Representation period.
Neil B
We really need to SEE these communications.

(For the e-mails c&p of exact text is probably acceptable).
driver39
Thanks. Will post all of this tonight.
driver39
Thanks. The original PCN is earlier in this thread.
I tried several times to view the video evidence on line after I received the PCN so that I could decide whether to appeal the PCN or not. I travel a lot for work (sometimes at short notice) so in the end I decided to make a representation without the video evidence so as not to miss any deadlines.
On 26 April 2016, I sent the following email to the Council:

“Hello, I am writing in connection with PCN XXXX. Vehicle registration XXXX.
I have requested to see the video evidence of the alleged contravention so that I can decide whether to appeal the PCN. The video evidence has not been available. I have checked several times on the https://viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx website and it states that there is a delay in processing my request.
I therefore ask that you extend the discounted period during which the payment would be £65 and the deadline by which I would need to make the appeal until the video evidence is available. Please send me an e-mail by return to confirm that the deadline will be extended until such at time that I am able to view the video evidence.
It appears to me from the photographs that the exit from the yellow box junction was clear when I entered it and therefore there was no contravention. I would, however like to view the video evidence to be sure of this before appealing.
Thank you”

I received the following automated response by e-mail
“Thank you for your communication. Please take this automated response as confirmation that we have received your email. However, if your email does not contain a valid Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number or VRM that is on our system we will be unable to respond to you. This email address is only to be used for challenges/representations against PCNs that have been issued by Hounslow Council. Please read the response times below. Do not send an email chasing your challenge/representation until at least 21 days have passed. Response Times to Penalty Charge Notice Challenges and Representations. While the Council is only required to respond to representations within certain statutory timescales (typically 56 days), we endeavor to deal with most correspondence within 10 working days.”

I did not hear anything further and had upcoming travel for work and knew that I would not be able to access communications from the Council for some time so I made a Representation on 3rd May 2016. The representation I made was on line using the specific Representation Online form. I don't have a copy of it unfortunately but I did state the reasons why I was appealing against the PCN. The email response I received to the representation is here:
“Online representation against a Penalty Charge Notice receipt.
Please do not reply to this email. This is an automated response
Dear XXXX
Penalty Charge Notice Number (PCN): XXXX
Vehicle Registration Number: XXXX
Thank you for your communication. Please take this automated response as confirmation that we have received your representation.
Your representation will be logged on our system and the PCN will remain on hold until we reply.
Please do not ignore any letters or notices regarding this.
The Council is required to respond to representations within certain statutory timescales (typically 56 days). Further information regarding these statutory timescales, as well as other useful information regarding parking, can be found at the following link:
http://www.hounslow.gov.uk/index/transport...arking/pcns.htm
If your communication is contesting a Penalty Charge Notice please note: If the discount period is applicable at the time your communication was received and your representation is unsuccessful the discount will be re-offered at the time we respond to you.
Regards

Strategic Commissioning – Parking”

The video evidence was sent to me by post after this. I don’t have a copy of the letter that was with this. I was traveling at this time and did not respond to this because I believed that my Representation to the Council had been received as per the email I received on 3rd May and that they would respond to state whether this had been successful or otherwise.

Next I received a Recovery Order dated 12 August (I will be able to post the Recovery Order up here in a couple of days). The Council say that a Charge Certificate was sent to me prior to this but I did not receive it.

I sent an e-mail to the Council on 19 August as follows:

“Hello,
I sent an appeal in connection with PCN XXX.
Car registration XXXX.
I appealed against this PCN as I did not enter the yellow box junction before the exit was clear. This is obvious from the CCTV evidence.
I have now received an 'Order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge' without receiving an outcome of the appeal that I made.
Please review my appeal and respond accordingly.”

I received no response to this so sent a follow up mail on 25th August stating:

“I sent the below e-mail regarding PCN XXXX, car reg XXX on 19 August 2016 to which I have had no reply to date.
I expect a confirmation of this e-mail and an explanation as to why I have received an Order for Recovery of unpaid penalty charge without having been sent a response to my appeal to the council. The deadline for me to respond to that Order is 11/9/2016. I am about to go out of the country for work purposes so need a response on this matter very urgently.”

I then received this letter by post:

http://tinypic.com/r/ic38g1/9



http://tinypic.com/r/iv8rit/9



I also received the following e-mail on 5/9/16:

“Good morning,
As per our letter dated 25/08/2016 you need to follow the instructions on the Order for Recovery, which you have clearly received.
I have noted your comments however I would again point you to our letter dated 24/05/2016 in which you were given until 14/06/2016 to make Representations. Nothing was received between 24/05/2016 and 14/06/2016 and therefore a Representation was not made.
Your online communication dated 03/05/2016 was not classed as a Representation but was further contact from you indicating you could not view the CCTV footage. You clearly stated the following suggesting it was not actually a Representation:
“I requested to see the video evidence 2 weeks ago so that I could determine whether to appeal but this is still not available. I keep getting the following message: View CCTV Evidence. There is a delay in processing your request, the site may be delayed during periods of high demand, administrators have been notified. If you opted to be notified via email or text message then you will receive notification as soon as your still images and video footage are ready for viewing. Alternatively please try again a little later.
It is therefore impossible for me to determine whether to appeal but this now seems to be my only option”.
We then replied, sending you the footage by post, and allowing you a further extended period to either submit Representations (again demonstrating we had not yet received any) or to pay the discounted amount. No further correspondence will be entered in to outside of the Statutory process.
Kind Regards
Appeals & Monitoring Officer
Environmental Services and Contract Management
Regeneration, Economic Development and Environment”


Here is the information on the Council website about contesting parking tickets. NB none of the advice on line relates to alleged yellow box junction contraventions:

"Disputing a parking PCN served by post
A person on whom a postal PCN is served will be entitled to make a formal Representation to the council against the PCN within 28 days, beginning with the date on which the PCN was served.
If your PCN relates to a parking contravention observed via CCTV and your Representation is received within 21 days of the issue date of the PCN, we will hold the case at the discounted amount (for one occasion only) until we have considered your comments and have sent you a reply. If we accept your Representation we will cancel your PCN and inform you in writing. If we reject your Representation we will inform you in writing and re-offer a 14 day period in which a discounted payment would be accepted as full and final payment to close the case.
If your Representation is received after the expiry of the 21 day discount period, we will hold the case at the full amount until we have considered your comments and have sent you a reply. If we accept your Representation, we will cancel your PCN and inform you in writing. If your Representation is rejected, we will inform you in writing and give you a further 28 days in which to pay the full charge.
If either instance if your Representation is rejected, you will receive a rejection letter with a Notice of Appeal (NOA) form. The NOA form can be used to appeal to an independent adjudicator at the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service (see external links above). If you decide not to appeal, then you must pay the outstanding fine within 28 days starting from the date on which the rejection letter is served.
If you fail to respond to the PCN addressed to you within 28 days of the PCN being served, the next stage is the sending of a Charge Certificate, which will increase the full amount by 50%. It is therefore in your own interest not to ignore the PCN but to reply appropriately and in time."







PASTMYBEST
Don't risk sitting on this or thinking you have done the right thing so it's the council at fault. It is, but they will still let the bailiffs lose.

Complete the statutory declaration in time, the case will then be referred to adjudication for direction, council can cancel biggrin.gif but most likely it will be listed for appeal
this is where it was going anyway
Neil B
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 6 Sep 2016 - 09:40) *
Don't risk sitting on this or thinking you have done the right thing so it's the council at fault. It is, but they will still let the bailiffs lose.

Complete the statutory declaration in time, the case will then be referred to adjudication for direction, council can cancel biggrin.gif but most likely it will be listed for appeal
this is where it was going anyway

+1

It's a pity we can't see exactly what you originally submitted but all will come out in the wash.

I really don't like the Council letter as, in the text, they directly discuss the contravention as if they accepted your reps.

It's a bit rich for their later e-mail to say they won't entertain further correspondence outside the
statutory process when that's exactly what they've done themselves.
John U.K.
+1 to PMB & Neil B

Hounslow again!

There are some similarities to this thread,
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=101532

which the OP might wish to peruse to see the difficulties which can arise in keeping ahead with this EA.

You must keep copies of all correspondence to and from the EA and notes of any (try and avoid them) telephone conversations.
Above all, you must not miss the deadline for responding the Order for Recovery.
driver39
Agree regarding the Representation but I am certain that I stated that my appeal was on the grounds that the vehicle did not enter the yellow box before the exit was clear. I did also state that the video evidence was not available but I cannot see how this means that this submission was not considered to be a Representation.

I will return the signed & witnessed Statutory Declaration before the deadline.

Is the case posted by John U.K. the correct one? The post refers to Harrow Council
John U.K.
Apologies! Fading memory confused me LBH[arrow] and LBH[ounslow] sad.gif

Nevertheless, there do seem to be some similarities in the EA's process in each thread.
driver39
Thanks John. No problem! Just wanted to be sure.
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