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hazzbean66
Hi, My daughter has received a Notice to Owner stating that a PCN was served (but it wasn't) - unable to scan at present.

My query is that the NtO is just one piece of A4 paper one sided and doesn't have any accompanying papers that refer to "how to make representations" and "ways to pay" that this letter refers to.

I rang the council without quoting the ref number for advice about this and they said that they had new staff in the post room and It was an oversight for the extra pages and to just write in and
appeal the £70 on the grounds not received the PCN and it would be reduced back to the £35.

My concern is that they have not sent out the correct paperwork with the NtO in the first place ? Or should she just appeal like they say?

thanks in advance
Enceladus
As you are about to discover phoning the Council is a complete waste of time. If you must call then please make sure you have the means to record the call and get the name of the person you are speaking to. If you have an NTO that is missing pages then it will also be missing mandatory information which should be fatal to the Council. But let's make certain of what you have. The NTO should be challenged on that basis.

Please proceed in the tried and tested manner. Please post up scrubbed scans of all pages of the document you received. Complete pages only please. Please check for evidence photos available from the council website. If there are any, then please download and post them up here.

Scrubbed = obscure or redact your name & address if applicable, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave everything else visible especially all time, date, location and council info.

Photos from a camera or phone are fine if you have no scanner. Please make sure the images are flat and well lit. Use close-up / macro mode if available. Try and have the images the right way up, some of the members won't even try and read them if they are sideways. Don't try and re-size the images, let the forum software handle that.

Some judiciously cut up pieces of paper, eg post-it notes, are good for obscuring. Please leave visible all time, date, location and council/enforcement authority info.

Please open a free of charge basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com or dropbox.com or similar. I use tinypic without complaint. There are numerous others. Log in and upload your scans, photos etc. Copy and paste the provided IMG links into your posts on here. Et voilà!
PASTMYBEST
We do not know the statute but if it's NTO in relation to a PCN served on the vehicle, then likely tma 2004 Certain information must be included

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made and 3(3)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

Failure to give this information is a Procedural impropriety and is fatal to the Penalty charge
hazzbean66
Thank you for your speedy response. will get on with photo of the piece of paper for her shortly - no photos available on website for Blackpool Council.
Incandescent
QUOTE
I rang the council without quoting the ref number for advice about this and they said that they had new staff in the post room and It was an oversight for the extra pages and to just write in and
appeal the £70 on the grounds not received the PCN and it would be reduced back to the £35.

What utter, utter, tosh they have told you, good thing you posted here first ! However we do need to see what you have received, so post it as requested.

Blackpool now join the lengthening list of numpty councils.

Assuming the NtO refers to a parking contravention, having received an NtO, the ball is now firmly in your court to respond, regardless to whether a PCN was attached to the car or not. So you need to either pay-it or appeal it. As the discount is lost when a NtO is received, it is a no-brainer to appeal it, and appeal it all the way to adjudication if necessary, as there are no additional costs for adjudication. This also assumes you have a reasonable case, and are not just playing around.
hazzbean66
Hi. I rang them without quoting any reference as I said my daughter had the letter and wanted more info on disputing it , and from what I have read on here people have got accompanying papers with theirs
Hopefully this photo has loaded properly



Neil B
Edit.

hcandersen
😄

OP, this is a simple matter, so let's try and keep it focused.

The contravention is irrelevant, this matter will be decided in your favour on the basis of the authority's c**k-up. You don't need reams of argument and legalese, all you need to know, as already posted by others, is that a NTO must contain specified information.

It doesn't.

You win.

If the authority reject your reps then you would succeed at adjudication and IMO be awarded costs.

These are the General Regs which specify what a NTO must contain. You must read 19(2).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made

And here is regulation 3(3) of the Appeals regs:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

If you have posted all sides of what you received then your NTO does not contain ANY of the matters specified in regulations 3(3)(a) - (e) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 and these form your representations which you must make in writing to the authority.

Address your letter to the following and include the PCN number and your registration number in the heading:

Parking Services, Blackpool Council, PO Box 4, Blackpool FY1 1NA

Post a draft here first.




hazzbean66
Thank you hcandersen for the links
Apologies for the standard of copy;

Date of nto and date of posting 29.03.16
Was served on; 21.02.16 @ 08:41:16 (not received)
Date and time of contravention @ 21.02.16 @ 08:41:16

This single piece of A4 paper one sided is all she has received with none of the relevant pages for appeals/representations etc.

Is it a brief letter along the lines of ... I wish to appeal against PCN number/Reg No ... on the grounds that " then quote legislation" not applied to the correct issue of the NTO?
Do I mention at this point that there are missing pages in any more detail?

Thank you



Neil B
Are you RK or is it a leased/hired/company vehicle?

Edit. Irrelevant.
hazzbean66
NeilB - No my daughter is the RK and it is her own car not leased or company car. The only reason I have got involved is that she is recovering from an op at the moment and I didn't want this to run out of time since receiving the NtO on 31.03.16.
I gather from reading on here that there is no standard template letter to the council, as such, but each letter is tailored to the particular situation and as I am neither a driver or car owner myself and not been in this situation before I am unsure of the wording of the letter.

thanks for your reply
Neil B
Sorry, ignore my point.
I was confusing with a postal PCN.

Earlier comments edited.

Hold fire if you need wording help: You have time.
hazzbean66
Here goes at a draft letter .... (addressed to the council parking services address etc.)

Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of a Notice to Owner in relation to a PCN .... for vehicle..... . Date of posting of Notice to Owner 29.03.16 received 31.03.16

Please consider this letter my formal representation against this PCN and Notice to Owner on the grounds of the Councils non compliance of the following
regulations, in that the mandatory paperwork to accompany this notice was not sent, to advise myself of my rights of representations and appeal.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/3/made

This letter has been sent recorded delivery for my reference .

should I make reference to the fact that the PCN was not received also?

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

yours sincerely,



Feel free to tell me to re-word if necessary, any help would be greatly appreciated. blush.gif

thanks again,

should I make reference to the fact that the PCN was not received also?
PASTMYBEST
I make formal representations against the issue of this Notice to Owner, relating to PCN NUMBER XXXXXXXXX.


My representations are on the ground of Procedural Impropriety in the failure to properly serve the PCN And the content of the NTO


No PCN was found attached to the vehicle, nor was one handed to the driver. As such I contend that no PCN was correctly served as per regulation 9.
This being so then the first knowledge of the alleged parking contravention is the single sheet Notice to Owner received ( full copy enclosed)

I put the council to proof that the PCN was properly served by way of CEO notes and/or photographs taken by the CEO to evidence service


The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 at regulation 19 require that the information listed at regulation 3(3) (a to e)
of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007. be included in the body of the NTO. It is missing
in it's entirety.

Failing to comply with the regulations is a Procedural Impropriety, a statutory ground for appeal, and as such a NTO must be cancelled in accordance with 5 (2) and (3)
of the appeals regulations


Only your daughter, the RK or you with written authority can make representations against a NTO So have her sign it
Neil B
Just one hit with Council.
Ideally want them to roll over.
Nothing wrong but I want to add to it.

Later.
Enceladus
The NTO says the original PCN was served by handing it to the person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle. And there are no photos on the NTO or on the website. So I would want to make them prove proper service.

I would strongly assert that no such PCN was found on the vehicle at the relevant time and no photos demonstrating service of the PCN are to be found on the Council's website.
Demand copies of the Civil Enforcement Officer's notes. And copies of all photographs of your vehicle taken by the Officer.

Concerning your strongest point, make it clear that your NTO consists of one side of A4. That you phoned the Council on dd/mm/yyyy. You spoke to Forename Surname and were advised that there had been problems with document collation in the Post Room when your NTO was sent. However that's not your problem, it's the Council's. The bottom line is that mandatory wording is missing from the Notice To Owner as served.
Neil B
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Thu, 7 Apr 2016 - 21:57) *
make it clear that your NTO consists of one side of A4. That you phoned the Council on dd/mm/yyyy. You spoke to Forename Surname and were advised that there had been problems with document collation in the Post Room when your NTO was sent. However that's not your problem, it's the Council's.

That's what I wanted to add exactly.
Put the on the back foot.
It's a warning shot telling them you know the score and they can't just reject out of hand.
hcandersen
Not 'one side of A4' but 'NTO, a copy of which is enclosed and which you will see comprises only one side of A4'.

Personally, I would forget about CEO's notes because why would you need something whose accuracy the owner ** intends to challenge in any event.

But OP, who was driving? If not the owner, then they have no first-hand knowledge of events and therefore cannot question service of the PCN with any authority. In any event, it might have been served and then removed by an oik. Personally, I'd forget this as IMO it's a distraction.

*** And don't forget, it is not your NTO and you may not make reps. In fact I'm surprised the authority discussed the matter with you unless the owner gave them authority to do so.
hazzbean66
Thank you all for your replies,

I am writing the letter and posting but she will sign as owner and RK of the vehicle. Just doing the groundwork (with brilliant help) whilst she's recovering from op!!

She was alone when she parked the car. She works as a carer and had pulled up at a clients house for 30 minutes and there was no PCN on her car and she has checked her work log for that date and had no passenger carer with her.

Not having the original PCN and the paperwork that should have come with the NtO that advises about rights and photographs etc. (which I only know about from here) I have had a look on the Blackpool Parking services website and cannot see anywhere for looking up photographs in any event.

Shall I go with PASTMYBEST's letter and also include a copy of the NtO as Enceladus suggests stating that when on phoning the council was told about the post room fiasco and to appeal. I have no name for the person but date and time only. blush.gif

Incidentally, when I rang the council I stated it was for my daughter but didn't have the paperwork to hand (I did) so could'nt quote the reference number but just wanted general advice... about how to dispute the NtO as there was nowhere on it to do so and that is how she spilled the beans about the post room and I ended up here!!

Many thanks once again,
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (hazzbean66 @ Fri, 8 Apr 2016 - 15:30) *
Thank you all for your replies,

I am writing the letter and posting but she will sign as owner and RK of the vehicle. Just doing the groundwork (with brilliant help) whilst she's recovering from op!!

She was alone when she parked the car. She works as a carer and had pulled up at a clients house for 30 minutes and there was no PCN on her car and she has checked her work log for that date and had no passenger carer with her.

Not having the original PCN and the paperwork that should have come with the NtO that advises about rights and photographs etc. (which I only know about from here) I have had a look on the Blackpool Parking services website and cannot see anywhere for looking up photographs in any event.

Shall I go with PASTMYBEST's letter and also include a copy of the NtO as Enceladus suggests stating that when on phoning the council was told about the post room fiasco and to appeal. I have no name for the person but date and time only. blush.gif

Incidentally, when I rang the council I stated it was for my daughter but didn't have the paperwork to hand (I did) so could'nt quote the reference number but just wanted general advice... about how to dispute the NtO as there was nowhere on it to do so and that is how she spilled the beans about the post room and I ended up here!!

Many thanks once again,


Have edited my post to reflect the input of others use or discard as you feel is best
hazzbean66
Hi PASTMYBEST,

Will follow your letter, copy the NtO and wing it off recorded delivery tomorrow!

Many thanks to you and everyone involved for your generous help and advice and will keep you updated when I/we hear back from the Council.

Off to work out how to quote peoples comments for future unsure.gif

thanks again,
hcandersen
Not recorded, it's pointless.

All you need to do is to obtain proof of posting which you ask for at your post office (while buying your first-class stamp) and which is free.
hazzbean66
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Apr 2016 - 17:16) *
Not recorded, it's pointless.

All you need to do is to obtain proof of posting which you ask for at your post office (while buying your first-class stamp) and which is free.



Thank you once again, hoping the quoting has worked ?! ohmy.gif

Keep you updated with the progress
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (hazzbean66 @ Fri, 8 Apr 2016 - 16:31) *
Hi PASTMYBEST,

Will follow your letter, copy the NtO and wing it off recorded delivery tomorrow!

Many thanks to you and everyone involved for your generous help and advice and will keep you updated when I/we hear back from the Council.

Off to work out how to quote peoples comments for future unsure.gif

thanks again,



Don't send recorded. Just get proof of posting from the PO counter
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