Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Council Parking - Inadequate signage.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
DerekChurch
Hi all,

This seems like a comedy of errors.
Firstly, I bought a new car and sent the relevant docs back to DVLA. After a few weeks of not receiving a V5, I phoned them and was told to just wait for it to arrive. Needless to say, it never did.

Then the previous owner of the car phoned me to tell me that he'd had a letter telling him to pay 70 quid for parking illegally.

I took the letter from him, and emailed the council telling them that, a) I was the registered owner now, and b) that I had no recollection of ever having a ticket on my car.

After a month, they finally replied and sent photos of my car WITH a ticket on the windscreen and I am indeed parked in a 'Permit Only' zone.
However, the road in question must have just been changed to a permit only as my friend lives on that road and I visit quite regularly.
I went back there yesterday after work, and as in their photo, there is a recently erected sign stating that between 9-5 the road is permit only....the thing is, it only has one sign and that is facing directly forward of the road. I entered the road from the right (the road is to the left on a crossroads, if that makes sense) and as such could not have seen the sign.

The council have said that because of the DVLA cock-up they will reduce the ticket to 35 quid if paid within the next 14 days - I could do that, but I feel that I have been duped into parking there.

How can I proceed from here?
PASTMYBEST
Post up the PCN and council photos your letter to them and any response.

There is a mandated process for this type of situation, and if it is stepped outside of, then the other person could receive the notice to owner.

In essence it is for that person to challenge and pass the liability to you
hcandersen
The previous owner did not receive a 'letter', they could only have received a Notice to Owner.

As PMB has posted, there is a specified procedure and between you, the previous owner and the authority you seem to have side-stepped this. According to you the authority have transferred liability to you but I won't be convinced until I see their letter.

Forget the contravention - I know you want to get into this but don't, it's not the key issue and should not concern us until we're happy about who's where in the procedure.

So, please post the docs as requested.


DerekChurch
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 31 Mar 2016 - 07:55) *
The previous owner did not receive a 'letter', they could only have received a Notice to Owner.

As PMB has posted, there is a specified procedure and between you, the previous owner and the authority you seem to have side-stepped this. According to you the authority have transferred liability to you but I won't be convinced until I see their letter.

Forget the contravention - I know you want to get into this but don't, it's not the key issue and should not concern us until we're happy about who's where in the procedure.

So, please post the docs as requested.



Yep, a NtO is what he received. I don't have a copy - he [angrily] phoned me and read it over the phone, along with the reference number. I then emailed them with that number telling them that despite me not having the V5 back yet, that I am (or should be by now) the registered owner.



Neil B
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 31 Mar 2016 - 08:25) *
Post up the PCN and council photos your letter to them and any response.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 31 Mar 2016 - 08:55) *
So, please post the docs as requested.


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858

DerekChurch
After his phone call, I sent this:
QUOTE
Dear Sir,

Recently I was contacted by the previous owner of my vehicle: W595 NLK where he informed me that he had received a Notice to Owner with regards to a parking ticket received.

Despite having sent the correct forms to the DVLA, the car was still apparently in his name at the time of the alleged contravention.

Is there anyway that this can be rectified?

I have contacted the DVLA and have been informed that I will have to apply for a V5C in my name as they don't appear to have received any documentation thus far.

Incidentally, I don't recall ever having a parking ticket attached to my car at the time of the alleged parking offence.

Could you please advise what course of action I should take.

Kind regards,



I received this in reply about a month later:

QUOTE
KP02510892
Parking.Services@shepway.gov.uk (Parking.Services@shepway.gov.uk) Add to contacts Attachment 30/03/2016 Keep this message at the top of your inbox Documents, Photos
To: xxxx@hotmail.com
Parking.Services@shepway.gov.uk
Outlook.com Active View
4 attachments (total 222.0 KB)
Click for Options
Click for Options
Click for Options
Click for Options
Shepway District Council.docx

Download all as zipSave all to OneDrive

Our Ref: KP02510892
Tel No: 01303 853380
E-Mail: parking.services@shepway.gov.uk
Date: 30/03/2016












Dear Mr xxxx

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE NUMBER KP02510892
The Traffic Management Act 2004 - s78; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007

Thank you for your email of 02/03/2016.

I note your comments regarding your change over from the previous keeper of the vehicle, only DVLA would be able to change this for you.

The Notice was served on this occasion because you were parked in a designated permit space between the hours of 8am – 6pm Mon-Sat without clearly displaying a valid permit.

I have enclosed a computer generated copy of the above Notice for your records together with copies of photos showing the Notice attached to your vehicle.

I note from your correspondence that you were unaware of the issue of the above Notice until receipt of my letter and I agree that on this occasion I will accept the discounted rate of £35 as full settlement of the penalty charge, providing payment is received within 14 days of receipt of this letter.

If I do not receive your payment within this time, the standard charge of £70 will become due and I will re-serve the Notice to Owner to the registered keeper which will enable you to make a formal representation against the Penalty Charge if you wish to do so.

Unfortunately due to the legal nature of this matter, we cannot enter into telephone or personal enquiries. Therefore any future communications in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice should be made in writing. Further information about Civil Parking Enforcement (including PCNs and NtOs) is available online at www.patrol-uk.info .

Yours sincerely

Mrs Kelly Baker


Along with the attached.
Neil B
Yourself and the original owner have bypassed process and the Council seem to have half-arsed gone along with it - or haven't?

Their letter makes no sense in referencing 're-serve NtO to RK' and then 'you may ---'

Maybe they've accepted you as Owner, maybe not.
DerekChurch
Quite probably.

I had an angry bloke on the phone to me, so emailed the council all the information I had and to see what I should do about it, hence:

QUOTE
Could you please advise what course of action I should take.


I could simply pay the 35 quid, but I honestly feel like they've cocked up by only putting the sign face-on to the road so only people driving directly into the road and not from either the left or right could tell that it was now a permit-only zone.
emergencychimp
What use are the photos if they don't show the sign and car in the same shot? Isn't that the whole point, or is it just to show a PCN was attached?
DerekChurch
I thought the same. Basically, I think they know they've cocked up. The sign is only visible if you enter the road in one (out of three) ways to enter. There are no other signs in the road.

It's like they 'knew' the PCN would be missing when I got back to my car.
PASTMYBEST
Are you now the RK on whom the re served NTO will be served. They can only do this if the cancel the first and accept that ownership has changed

Please post a GSV so we can have a look around.
Neil B
Just to clarify what OP means by "three ways to enter" and "enter from the side".

It's a short single road with NO intervening junctions, so he can only mean he considers the sign not
easily visible when turning left or right into it.

There were originally the usual DYs at each end but I'm not sure if the sign is set back as far as where they end. (or now end).

However, if he can't see these, how would he cope with 'No Entry' signs which would be right up to each junction?
It seems an unreasonable appeal point.

Of far more importance is, as we've all said, the issue of 'responsibility': I'm not sure he realises how much and an
even angrier phone call might be forthcoming from the former owner.

Not that the third party had any justification to be angry in the first place and, on receipt of the NtO was
the one initially at fault.

Some clarity from the Council would have been nice.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.0825037,1...3312!8i6656
DerekChurch
I still haven't, as yet, had the V5 back from the DVLA so can only assume that I am now the RV on their database.

Sorry, I have no idea what GSV means.

[EDIT: Doh! Google Street Map!]

Neil is correct, on the google map, where the Neighbourhood watch sign is is now where the sign stating that the road is permit only parking. I entered from the right of that sign and turned left into that road and parked where the blue mini is - clearly unable to see the new sign - I'm not sure why it's an unreasonable appeal point as there is no signage in the road itself at all.
hcandersen
OP, at present you have no liability because the NTO was not issued in your name.

The 28-day period for making reps against the NTO has elapsed because you emailed the authority on 3 March which was after the NTO had been served.

The authority's reply states that the discount may be paid until 14 April, so nothing's going to happen before then.

OP, you do not have a NTO and so issues to do with the contravention can wait because they are not going to change and are not time critical, whereas the procedure is and you must get a grip of what's what. You may also consider that you have a moral obligation to the previous owner, but that's up to you.

So are you the RK, in other words do you have a V5C? You said or implied in your email that you were in the process of dealing with DVLA and that was a month ago. And the current situation is?
DerekChurch
Current situation is that I phoned them and have sent them a form and 25 quid (which is a p***take IMO, as it's not ME that's lost it!)

I do feel a moral obligation as, obviously, he didn't park there, I did and as such, it should be my problem, not his.
hcandersen
OP, you seem to be taking the issue of RK and DVLA very casually and although relevant in this case is also a parallel strand of concern.

It is your obligation to ensure that you are registered and all the protestations in the world and use of capital letters won't change this, at present you are committing a criminal offence. The V5C is explicit in this regard if you read the small print about your duty to check that your form has been actioned and the time frame for taking action as opposed to remaining passive.

£25 for what, when, what will they do, by when?
DerekChurch
I'm not taking it casually at all. After about 3 weeks I didn't receive the V5C and phoned them [the DVLA]. They told me to wait as sometimes it can take up to 6 weeks.
In that time, I heard from the previous owner about this parking ticket, which confirmed that they hadn't actioned the slip sent back when I bought the vehicle.
I telephoned them again and asked what to do about it, the woman told me to get a form (I forget the exact form name now as I sent it back to them with a cheque for 25 quid).
I still haven't had the V5C back, and am not entirely sure what I'm supposed to do about it next to be honest. I could easily spend the next year chasing it.
Their failure has cost me 25 quid (although I note that the cheque has not yet been cashed). I have fulfilled my legal duty as far as I'm concerned - I've sent all relevant forms to them, and then again and paid for the privilege and phoned them twice
To say I'm not taking it seriously if somewhat unfair. I realise it's my obligation to ensure I am registered but no amount of trying seems to get the DVLA to do their part.

So, to recap: The DVLA didn't action the change of keeper, the previous owner received an NtO and informed me. I emailed the council to see what I should do next. A month later, they state that they will accept a reduced 35 quid if paid in the next 14 days.
emergencychimp
What did you get in return for your £25?
DerekChurch
Nothing as yet. It's supposed to be a replacement V5C.
localdriver
Did the seller give you the green 'New Keeper Supplement' from their V5C, with that you don't need to pay for your V5C.

DerekChurch
Yes, he did. I still have it.
localdriver
It is the sellers responsibility to notify the change of keeper and send the completed V5C to the DVLA, if they did not (or the DVLA lost the paperwork they sent), you would not be required to pay if you had sent the New Keeper Supplement with the V62.

hcandersen
??

Both the seller and the new keeper have duties, the latter to keep their eye on the ball and take action (which can be done online) should they not receive the new V5C.

Nothing that the seller does or doesn't do absolves the new keeper of their duty.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/new...d-used-vehicles

And we're well past the trigger periods prescribed.
localdriver
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 2 Apr 2016 - 20:21) *
?? Both the seller and the new keeper have duties, the latter to keep their eye on the ball and take action (which can be done online) should they not receive the new V5C. Nothing that the seller does or doesn't do absolves the new keeper of their duty. https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/new...d-used-vehicles And we're well past the trigger periods prescribed.


It is the seller's responsibility to notify the transfer of keeper (for V5Cs issued after 1997) - reg.22, The Road Vehicles(Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.

The gov.uk website is only advice to a new keeper to apply for their V5C if not received within four weeks.

Neil B
But the OP has posted about a PCN and it is there that the issue of responsibility lies.

The former owner has not followed process, neither has OP but Council have joined in the debacle by
responding and neither have they.

Quite who is going to get a re-issued NtO is beyond me, from the Council's gobbledegook response.

In the absence of any photos from OP to show the contrary, his appeal point is very poor.

With an offer of discount on the table at such an oddly late stage I'd be snatching their arm off.
hcandersen
It is the keeper's duty to ensure that their details are properly recorded by DVLA.

The keeper has not discharged their duty.

I don't want to get off the main topic with this but the OP must realise the risk they run outwith parking considerations if they do not get this actually sorted - the method is simple, quick and cheap.

OP, as it stands and taking the authority's words literally they will re-serve the NTO on the registered keeper no sooner than 13 April. If that is you, then you can make reps, but if it's it's not, you cannot. I suggest you contact DVLA and see when they are likely to process your application. This is the critical issue, not details about the contravention.

The ONLY reason that the DVLA are involved in this issue is because the seller did not respond to the NTO. Had they done so then the authority would have served a NTO on you by now. IMO, it's still not too late. Why not get back into the procedure and get the seller to respond to the NTO, referring to your email to the authority and their reply - 20 minutes at most. The penalty stays at the discount until at least 13th, so they must consider reps made before then. This way you'll get your NTO.
DerekChurch
I wish it was quick and simple.

I don't know what else I'm supposed to do. Their website says that I will receive a V5C within 6 weeks.

I didn't get it within 4, so I phoned. They told me to wait. I waited. Then I phoned again and was told that I'd have to pay 25 quid for a replacement. I've done that. I still don't have a V5C.

I realise that it's my responsibility but no amount of chasing, phoning, paying seems to get me the document. I can't be held responsible for the DVLAs failures after this much chasing, there has to be a point where they themselves are at fault.

localdriver
Under normal circumstances, when the DVLA receive the V5C from the previous keeper, they send the new keeper their V5C. The advice is to contact the DVLA if it does not arrive within 4 weeks.

If the new keeper applies for their V5C using form V62 with the New Keeper Supplement, there is no fee, and the V5C is usually sent in about a week.

If a New Keeper Supplement is not sent with the V62, it costs £25 and can take several weeks as the DVLA will write to the current keeper and wait for a reply before sendind the new keeper their V5C.

As has been stated, the main problem was caused by the previous keeper not following the correct procedure in respect of notifying the council that they were not the owner at the time.
hcandersen
OP, why won't the person to whom the NTO was addressed make reps even now? You keep going back to DVLA, but that's not the issue if the recipient of the NTO makes reps.

As I posted, this takes no time, in fact much less than has expired between my last post and this one.

What's the problem?

As it stands you have NO liability in this matter and no-one is demanding anything from you, so you could just ignore the issue.
Neil B
I don't disagree with what HCA is saying/ has said but you have to look beyond that.
It is only going one way - up.

Imo, discussions about a V5 debacle are for the Flame Pit.

Here, we advise on PCNs.

So, is there some reason I'm missing that anyone would want to receive a NtO for this one?

hcandersen
Exactly.

Why is the OP so hell bent on getting a demand for a parking penalty and why won't the addressee of the NTO act properly?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.