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Full Version: PCN 01 - Parking in Restricted Street (Swansea)
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
OwenW
Hi all,

On March 1st me and several other people in the same street received PCNs for parking on the grass away from the road/pavement on the basis that we were in a "controlled parking zone".

I've no idea where the entrance to this zone is supposed to be but I was quite surprised to learn that according to the letter, the roadway/parking restrictions count up to the building wall.

Attached is the PCN and the response letter to my original appeal so I'm not sure if there is anywhere to go from here or should I just give in and pay towards Swansea Council's next Christmas do?

Original Ticket

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/8986/SRh0Of.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1249/n45GtP.jpg

Letter Response

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/9381/rEcHEA.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2407/eXrNdf.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3361/iMYDA3.jpg

Thanks for any help!
DancingDad
Somewhere along here?
Could you link us to exact spot pls ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6514199,-...3312!8i6656

Irrelevant but I wander how many people with prams they get wandering along the grass verges.

This would seem to be the Traffic order which covers the CPZ
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/2429...GVT%208.CMB.pdf

And working from that, one set of CPZ signs
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6488828,-...3312!8i6656

Just musing but if you are local to the area, go to Eurocar parts on the A4217
Enter their car park and drive straight through onto Mannesman Close, turn left and go to end where it joins Fendrod Way.
According to streetview, you can enter the CPZ that way and not pass any CPZ entry signs.
Dated 2012 so may well be out of date but if you can do that, the CPZ cannot be said to be adequately signed.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6587292,-3.9040006,18z
John U.K.
I think I am right in saying that the yellow lines govern from the centre of the carriage way to edge of the roadway (inc.pavements and verges) rather than, as the Council asserts, to the building line.
This large scale OS plan

http://wam.swansea.gov.uk/WAM/doc/Historic...amp;pageCount=1

shows assorted lines where you appear to have parked.

Is the grassed area part of the curtilage of the Business Park, or verge belonging to the road?
PASTMYBEST
edit


There cannot be A CPZ as there are unrestricted areas, nor can the OP be in contravention as there are no time plates


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.651462,-3...3312!8i6656
OwenW
Hi DancingDad

The Ford Focus saloon and grey Corsa are in more or less the same position from the Google maps link you posted.

I'll have a look at EuroCar Parts entrance tomorrow to see if that is a way in without signs - I know it's a slightly oddly designed route into there.

John UK, the council letter implies it is their land but I'm not sure where I could get any further info from on the subject to confirm or deny if it is council land. Any idea where I'd find more plans for the area?

Pastmybest, the letter the council sent said the CPZ covers all and means they don't need signs. I don't suppose anybody has a link to the CPZ part or TSRGD or any other legislation?

Many thanks for the responses so far smile.gif
PASTMYBEST
12.1 is the relevant paragraph

http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-03.pdf
DancingDad
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 27 Mar 2016 - 21:36) *
edit


There cannot be A CPZ as there are unrestricted areas, nor can the OP be in contravention as there are no time plates


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.651462,-3...3312!8i6656


I'd be wary of that as it is encroaching into arguments tried and failed in Sunderland.
Substantial compliance applies and that means that signs and lines will not be damned due to local anomalies that have no bearing on the actual situation.
PASTMYBEST
No what you mean, but this is not a case of worn markings there are none there. and its not a mile away, it's across the road.
Like all technical arguments they are better in tandem
Mad Mick V
Might be legitimate expectation judging by the number of cars "in contravention" on GSV.

So the OP needs to tell us how long this verge parking has been going on (custom & usage) and when the Council started to enforce.

If this parking system is long term without enforcement taking place--did the Council give notice that it would start to enforce?

Background on legitimate expectation here:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1159286

Mick
hcandersen
OP, where are the authority's photos?

All we've got are historical GSV with no yellow lines at the location.

If this is correct then you could have parachuted into the area for all the difference CPZ signs make. So can we at least see the yellow lines and address PMB's point.
Mad Mick V
I take it that the image shown in the 1st post is from the Council which shows a SYL.


http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3361/iMYDA3.jpg

Mick
PASTMYBEST
I posted the GSV, to show no YL just across from where the OP parked, onlt because it post dated the order posted by DD. It may be that YL have been added there

OP can you get a recent picture of this stretch of road


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.651462,-3...3312!8i6656
hcandersen
Found it.

The question would appear to be a simple one: does the effect of the yellow line extend to where the OP was parked?

The authority are unlikely to give way on the issue of the extent of the effect, so it's off to adjudication eventually where the outcome as regards the extent would be unpredictable IMO.

Personally, whether it's part of a road is secondary to who is expected to pick up the tab for managing this piece of ground which is not hardstanding and is being churned to b*****y by such parking.
DancingDad
I can't see an adjudicator accepting anything else but that the yellow lines apply to the building/fence line.

But whether or not the yellow lines are adequately marked is another question.
The council are relying on CPZ times to avoid local plates.
But possibly have entrance(s) that are not signed with CPZ entry plates and as PBM pointed out, the overt "local" signs that should alert a motorist to this being a CPZ are not there.
The rules are clear, all roads should be marked with either yellow lines or parking spaces.
Without this, it is unclear whether this is a CPZ (and for the motorist to assume that they missed entry signs) or whether it is a local line with a missing plate.
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