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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pops Popper
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2015
Date of the NIP: - 108 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 110 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A45 London Rd WB Ryton Bridge,Ryton-on-Dunsmore. United Kingdom
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Driver of vehicle hired by ex-wife
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I exceeded the said speed limit travelling at 59 mph in a 50 mph zone,and was caught by speed camera.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:38:15 +0000
peterguk
Any questions?

I suggest you return the S.172 pronto, as there is often a limit of 4 months for completion of SACs.
Pops Popper
OK thanks Peter,not sure what any course of action of defence would be for this as I'm only clued up on PCN's I'm afraid.
Only thing I can ask at this moment is do I have a chance of defending this thing?
Ta.
Jlc
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 11:12) *
Only thing I can ask at this moment is do I have a chance of defending this thing?

3 possible elements of a defence:

1. The signage is defective or traffic order - basically the limit is different (and the limit wasn't exceeded)
2. The car was not travelling at the alleged speed
3. There's an 'procedural error' in the paperwork (e.g. 1st NIP delivered after 14 days from the offence)

Chances? Probably slim to none unless you know something we don't?

As already noted, respond to the driver (s172) request as failure to do so would be a slum dunk offence carrying 6 points and large fine.
Pops Popper
OK thanks for the reality check :-)
Anywhere I can find information that will help me to spot a procedural impropriety in the paperwork at all?
peterguk
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 12:55) *
OK thanks for the reality check :-)
Anywhere I can find information that will help me to spot a procedural impropriety in the paperwork at all?


Assuming the first NIP arrived within 14 days, and the NIPs contain a specfic location and mention of the offence, i doubt you'll find any issues.
Pops Popper
OK,looks like done and dusted here,I'm going on a course then lol.....
Jlc
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 13:01) *
OK,looks like done and dusted here,I'm going on a course then lol.....

Probably but a course may not be an option given the timing. There's around 4 month cut-off which you may not meet. (So would be 3 points £100).
Pops Popper
They sent me the SAC paperwork so it's a 100 miles away so trying to maybe negotiate a closer centre would be my best option I guess.
Jlc
You should be able to sit a local course as part of national scheme.
The Rookie
For info that limit is about as well signed as it can be, to be honest you almost certainly knew you were in a 50 limit (and realistically if you missed the signs should probably see an optician pronto.... if you can find one....)
Pops Popper
Thanks gents,will be biting the bullet!
Will try to find a closer centre.
Pops Popper
Well,after some time Warwickshire Police have sent me an ultimatum-pay £100 fine and three points to be put on my licence,not a sniff of a speed awareness court at all!
I have seven days to reply,anyone with any suggestions how to open a defence at this point in the proceedings?
The Rookie
Defence based on what?

Even if you have a defence you'll be presenting it in court absent a really compelling issue the Police will consider.

What happened to the SAC?
nosferatu1001
You got sent SAC info in post 9. What happened to it?

Do you have a defence?
AntonyMMM
If you didn't take up the SAC offer, then the £100 & 3pts is the best it is going to get.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Fri, 15 Apr 2016 - 11:04) *
I have seven days to reply,anyone with any suggestions how to open a defence at this point in the proceedings?


On the ordinary meaning of the words, to the extent that they can be said to have a specific meaning, you cannot "open a defence" at this point. If you want to defend the allegation, you ignore or reject the offer of a fixed penalty and wait for them to take you to court.
Jlc
Indeed, but I hope you're not thinking the lack of (local?) awareness course offer forms any defence?
squaredeal
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 15 Apr 2016 - 11:51) *
Indeed, but I hope you're not thinking the lack of (local?) awareness course offer forms any defence?

Especially as the original course offer would have made it quite clear that as part of the National scheme you could have attended almost anywhere in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Looks like that boat has sailed due to your inaction. If they have given you 7 days to pay and submit your driving licence they have probably got a finger poised over the 'prosecute' button waiting for the allowed week to elapse. Only if both payment and endorsement has occurred and the notice is closed can a prosecution no longer be initiated.
Pops Popper
Sorry,on the original NIP it gave an SAC course as an option regarding how the offence could be dealt with after I sent back the paperwork.
They didn't give me the chance to do a course,they just want to hit me with a fine and three penalty points.
Thought that was a bit harsh! So now I guess I have to start looking at some kind of defence or follow-up.
Any suggestions?
NewJudge
If you don’t have a defence against the offence itself (which it seems you don’t) you should simply take up the fixed penalty offer pronto. There is no right to a SAC and no obligation to offer one.

Regrettably the SAC boat is long gone. The option for a prosecution to be started lapses in May (the same day as the offence was in November). Because of that there is no time to fanny about. If you don’t accept the FP soon a prosecution will be launched and it will cost you considerably more than £100.
Pops Popper
Are you saying that there's no possibility of going to court then and trying to defend or plea and mitigate against?
andy_foster
Of course there's a chance of successfully defending this in court. However, nothing that you have told us so far indicates the likelihood of a viable defence - other than the remote possibility of the prosecution fouling up monumentally and the court not allowing them an adjournment to rectify.

Currently your defence seems to be that you really don't want the points or the fine. Whilst that might be a common sentiment, it is not in any sense a defence.
Jlc
A defence could consist on showing the limit/signage was somehow deficient or that you weren't going as fast as they allege.

...or some 'administrative' error. A SAC is totally discretionary and does not assist in any defence whether one was offered or not.

Accepting the fixed penalty is likely to be your best move as there doesn't appear to be a defence? Mitigation is to lessen the impact when pleading guilty but nothing you can say at court is going to get better than 3 points & £100. (Costs alone would be £85 and a surcharge of at least £20)
Logician
You need to understand that going to court without a good viable defence is a mug's game. A fixed penalty is £100 and 3 points. In court the fine will be based on your weekly net income, 50% for that speed plus a surcharge of 10%, minimum £20. You would get a discount of 33% off the fine if you pleaded guilty. Then there are the prosecution costs, which are £85 for a guilty plea and guideline £620 for a not guilty plea if you are found guilty. Therefore even going to court and pleading guilty would be considerably more than the fixed penalty, and being found guilty after pleading not guilty would be very expensive indeed. You have said nothing here that amounts to any mitigation, let alone defence, so taking the fixed penalty is your best option unless you have something up your sleeve you have not mentioned.
Pops Popper
OK,I see.Is there not some specific time limit that I am supposed to receive the NIP after?
I mean,it had to go thru about three parties before the Police force in question finally notified me?
I thought there was some limit attached to how long before they have to notice you?
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Sat, 16 Apr 2016 - 17:25) *
OK,I see.Is there not some specific time limit that I am supposed to receive the NIP after?
I mean,it had to go thru about three parties before the Police force in question finally notified me?
I thought there was some limit attached to how long before they have to notice you?


The first NIP has to go to the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the offence - that isn't you, so not much help. Subsequent NIPs in the chain have no such limit.
Pops Popper
Is it worth me posting the NIP?
Logician
QUOTE (Pops Popper @ Sat, 16 Apr 2016 - 17:32) *
Is it worth me posting the NIP?


I doubt it, the location seems specific enough and you know it is an offence of speeding. The purpose of a NIP is to give an idea of the offence alleged, it does not have to be very specific.

Pops Popper
OK,thx for that,the hire or lease company would know that.
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