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funtimefranky
Hi

I received a car parking ticket this week and am slightly confused by it. It was a Council issued parking ticket but it was issued to me for parking in a what has always been a private car park (not council owned).

The car park concerned is a medium sized private car park. Until recently I paid them a monthly amount to receive a permit from them to park there and have done for about the last 5 years. However, about a year ago they decided to put up the cost by 150% so I declined and cancelled. When I parked there with my permit there was often people who parked there without a permit and they would always put a notice on peoples windows stating that it was a private car park and that they risked there vehicles getting 'towed' if they carried on parking there etc etc. This was obviously all hot air and that never happened.

Anyway since I cancelled my permit, for the last year I have still parked there occasionally (I know I shouldn't have). On a couple of occasions I have had the usual notices about not parking there as it is a private car park etc, but then a couple of days ago I came back to an actual council issued parking ticket.

I attach copies of the front and back of the ticket.
Click to view attachment

For the last couple of years (whilst I had a permit) they updated the sign on entry to show it saying that any unauthorized entry would result in a Parking Charge Notice etc etc and it also had the council's crest on it. I had thought this was just bluster as people who parked there without a permit still continued to just get notes etc without anything actually being done. For the last year I haven't had a permit due to the extortionate price hike and ashamedly admit I have continued to park there on occasions. I have had a couple of the usual notes but this week I found an actual council issued parking ticket.

Do I have any grounds for appealing or getting this cancelled? Or am I just going to have to take the hit? The car park is permit only and is not pay & display.

Thanks in advance
Incandescent
I can't say I sympathise a great deal with you, however the question has to be - were you parked in the car park named on the PCN ? If so, I can't see any get-out here, I'm afraid, you just have to take it on the chin IF the car park is now operated by the council.

Doubts arise from your statement as to what is on the entry sign. A photo wold be useful, because if it says a Parking Charge Notice will be issued, and you have got a Penalty Charge Notice, then something is fishy. The legislation for the issue of PCNs is very specific, so they could have acted illegally here. However it could be that they have now taken over the car park and are enforcing it using the CPE process in the Traffic Management Act 2004. In this case the sign should be changed.
Mad Mick V
That car park is noted on this traffic order:-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j...Twg&cad=rja

It is Council operated. Permits only.

Mick
Neil B
QUOTE (funtimefranky @ Tue, 15 Mar 2016 - 10:57) *
Until recently I paid them a monthly amount to receive a permit from them


Who are "them"?
dandyman
I was in Harpenden yesterday so I had a look (despite also lacking sympathy for the OP who knowingly parked where he was not permitted to do so). Here are my findings (as already posted on MSE):

The car park has three entrances/exits, all on Arden Grove.

There are several pointless signs stating "Private" and threatening clamping.

There are just two signs demanding a permit and warning of a penalty charge. One of these is next to (outside) the northernmost entrance. The other is inside the car park, on the road boundary between the northernmost entrance and the middle entrance. Accordingly it would be possible to enter and leave the car park by the southernmost or middle entrances and never see one of these signs. Furthermore, the sign inside the car park is mounted at a low height at the back of a parking bay, so it wouldn't be visible if, say, a van were parked in front of it. So it is possible that in these circumstances the only visible sign warning of a penalty charge would be the one outside the northernmost entrance.

As for the wording on the two signs, they state "Permit Holders Only", and then list the offences which attract a penalty charge. Not displaying a permit is not in the list i.e. nowhere does it state that you are liable to a penalty charge if you don't display a permit!

Tartarus
QUOTE (dandyman @ Wed, 16 Mar 2016 - 10:24) *
As for the wording on the two signs, they state "Permit Holders Only", and then list the offences which attract a penalty charge. Not displaying a permit is not in the list i.e. nowhere does it state that you are liable to a penalty charge if you don't display a permit!

I looked at the sign first before reading your text, and that was the first thing that stuck out to me as well, nowhere on the sign does it say you'll get charged if you don't have a permit! tongue.gif

And if there's a warning sign only at one of three access points, then there's plenty of grounds for not seeing the restrictions...
Incandescent
QUOTE (Tartarus @ Wed, 16 Mar 2016 - 16:50) *
QUOTE (dandyman @ Wed, 16 Mar 2016 - 10:24) *
As for the wording on the two signs, they state "Permit Holders Only", and then list the offences which attract a penalty charge. Not displaying a permit is not in the list i.e. nowhere does it state that you are liable to a penalty charge if you don't display a permit!
I looked at the sign first before reading your text, and that was the first thing that stuck out to me as well, nowhere on the sign does it say you'll get charged if you don't have a permit! tongue.gif And if there's a warning sign only at one of three access points, then there's plenty of grounds for not seeing the restrictions...


Maybe it's a virtual permit, so they check using a HH computer. Despite this, I can't see the OP winning at adjudication no matter the rather inadequate sign, but am prepared to be surprised. OP would have to go to adjudication for the full PCN.






bama
They have a HUGE track record of monumental feck ups with TROs. And I mean monumental. (e.g all of off-street invalid for years, and in on-street they removed the requirement to pay and display in all on-street pay and display bays.)
Dig out the full TRO - that means the base order plus any and all amendments.
If there are amendments apply the deltas manually one by one to the base copy and see the resultant text.
They may have got their act together (or paid someone to do it) but it has to be worth checking.
And get the Notice(s) of Making - it is a key document and they are known to feck that up as well.



dandyman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 16 Mar 2016 - 19:31) *
Maybe it's a virtual permit, so they check using a HH computer. Despite this, I can't see the OP winning at adjudication no matter the rather inadequate sign, but am prepared to be surprised. OP would have to go to adjudication for the full PCN.

Surely the fact that you can easily get into and out of the car park without ever seeing the sign has got to be significant? After all, although the OP knew he was parking without permission he didn't see the "official" sign and had no idea he was risking a penalty charge.
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