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erind123
Hi I wonder if anyone can help.
My 17 year old daughter has received a NIP for failure to comply with red/green arrow/lane closure flashing light signals. She was driving at 23mph
and time into red light was 7.1 seconds. It was timed at 17.22pm in the city centre. It happened 2 days after passing her test. She has a black box fitted
and is aware of driving slowly and carefully. She cant remember going through a red light at all, and is really upset about it.
I was under the impression she would get either 3 points on her licence and £100 fine or a red light awareness course. However after calling the penalty
enforcement unit they have told me that she will definitely be receiving a court summons due to time in the red being so long.
What is likely to happen at court? She is terrified that she will lose her licence.
Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.
Jlc
Yup, that far into red would always be a court summons.

Hopefully, they are just looking to pursue the traffic signals offence as that would be 3 points. But the fine will be higher (income related) along with costs (£85) and surcharge (10% of the fine).

Can you confirm which set of lights it was - she may have seen another signal and mistaken it for her lane?

It's also likely they would accept a postal plea so she wouldn't necessarily have to attend court.
Logician
For an inexperienced driver complicated junctions with a number of lights can be very confusing and it may be that was where she slipped up. If they charge her simply with failing to obey a red light it will be three points and a financial penalty rather more than £100, but they may charge careless driving which could result in more points. I suggest she would get the best result by attending in person rather than pleading by post and explain how new a driver she was and apologise and show how upset she is, and ask for a number of points that will not cause her newly won licence to be revoked (5 or less). Magistrates are mostly human and will I think sympathise more when seeing her in person, reminding them of their daughters/granddaughters. It often takes the best part of 6 months to issue a summons/requisition and then there will be a delay before the court date, if she is able to say that there have been no further incidents since this one, it should help her case that she does not need to go back to learner status.

Of course if she gets difficult under pressure, then better to do it by post!
andy_foster
What offence is stated on the NIP.

Whilst it is understandable that you want to help your daughter, is there any reason she can't post here herself, rather than running the risk of playing chinese whispers?
erind123
Hi,

Thanks for the replies. The lights were in Liverpool city centre. Victoria Street at the junction with Crosshall Street.
I think you are right its a case of inexperience and maybe panic in a busy city centre. I am going to go down there after work, just to look at the light sequence to understand what might have happened. I just hope that 3 points and a fine is the outcome, rather than her licence to be taken from her. I also think attending in person may help, so will probably go down this route. She is on holiday at the moment so isn't aware that it will be a court summons. I feel so sorry for her. A harsh lesson to be learnt.

Hi The offence is : Motor Vehicle fail to comply with red/green arrow/lane closure flashing light signals - automatic equipment at 17.22.
Jlc
Here.

Doesn't seem too confusing but may be just a lack of observation? You can see the camera on the left and are usually extremely reliable and are triggered by sensors under the road. With a speed measurement it sounds like it also acts as a 'speed on green' camera.

(To pursue careless it would have been on the NIP)

Attendance is usually best but may not be mandatory.
erind123
Your right it doesn't look too confusing, so I don't understand how it happened. As soon as she come home tomorrow I will discuss it with her.
Hopefully it will be 3 points and a fine if we are lucky. Fingers crossed. Even if that is the case her insurance will go up massively at renewal time.
Thank you for your quick replies. You have all been very helpful.
Jlc
I would check the terms of the insurance - it may require notification prior to renewal.
erind123
Yes I will do that. I though £1500 was bad enough. I can see that going through the roof.
At the end of the day it was her fault and we will have to deal with the consequences.

Thank you.
dacouc
QUOTE (erind123 @ Mon, 7 Mar 2016 - 17:03) *
Yes I will do that. I though £1500 was bad enough. I can see that going through the roof.
At the end of the day it was her fault and we will have to deal with the consequences.

Thank you.


It normally has a fairly substantial impact on Insurance premiums especially for young drivers as jumping red lights is a cause or serious accidents.

However the good news is her renewal will include big discounts for earning a years no claims bonus and being a year older which should negate the conviction loading
erind123
I have looked at a couple of quotes, as if she were a year older with 1 years no claims and the points. Unfortunately the cheapest came to £2500!! without the points just over £1000.
One mistake means she wont be driving for a few years. A harsh lesson to be learnt.
baroudeur
"Motor Vehicle fail to comply with red/green arrow/lane closure flashing light signals - automatic equipment at 17.22."

Is this the standard wording for passing a red traffic light?


Edited: I've just checked and apparently it is. It's just that I have never come across it before despite wasting a lot of time reading this forum.

Jlc
The offence would be fail to comply with traffic sign. Seems ok to me. (Contrary to s.36 Road Traffic Act 1988)
Jlc
...all assuming there wasn't some sort of malfunction - it's very unusual of course.
666
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 12:35) *
"Motor Vehicle fail to comply with red/green arrow/lane closure flashing light signals - automatic equipment at 17.22."

Is this the standard wording for passing a red traffic light?


Edited: I've just checked and apparently it is. It's just that I have never come across it before despite wasting a lot of time reading this forum.


Time reading Pepipoo wasted? Shame on you!
The Rookie
The NIP only has to make the offence clear, there is no prescribed wording, in this case I'd say it was clear enough.
Logician
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 7 Mar 2016 - 16:50) *
To pursue careless it would have been on the NIP


Would it? I may be wrong but I thought if the conduct was specified, then the actual charge could be anything appropriate for that. But even if that is correct, I think it is a good sign that careless is not mentioned on the NIP.

Jlc
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 17:16) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 7 Mar 2016 - 16:50) *
To pursue careless it would have been on the NIP


Would it? I may be wrong but I thought if the conduct was specified, then the actual charge could be anything appropriate for that. But even if that is correct, I think it is a good sign that careless is not mentioned on the NIP.

Indeed, they would normally put the 'possible' offences on the NIP. BTP as a pro forma list of the traffic sign offence along with careless AND dangerous just to cover bases - they rarely pursue dangerous but for certain train crossing circumstances such a charge might be appropriate. (But has been known to create alarm to some 'minor' offenders!)
Dwain
Hi, just playing devils advocate and not making any accusations at all, given the speed and the simple layout of the lights do you think there is any chance your daughter could have been on the phone?

That's occasionally a reason for lack of concentration.

Just a thought.

Dwain
erind123
Hi,

No I really don't think she would do something as stupid as using her phone. She is back from holiday and I have asked all of those questions. She hasn't realised that she went through the lights. As it was rush hour in the city centre she said there were a lot of buses around so I am wondering if her view has been obscured by the traffic and she has just followed the moving traffic. She can't remember at all. She is calling today to see if she can get further details and maybe photos of the incident.
Jlc
23mph though?
The Rookie
You can write and ask for photo's to 'help confirm the drivers ID' or similar, they don't have to supply them and as the case is readily identifiable may have done so and decide not to send any.
Jlc
The photo's are of the rear of the car so are extremely unlikely to identify the driver but it would be good to see the pictures for the context - but as already noted they may not supply... They are usually very reliable.
erind123
I'm hoping photos may jog her memory as to how it happened. Just grasping at straws really. She will be ringing this morning anyway.
Since it will be a court summons, have there been any instances of similar cases avoiding points and just paying a fine and attending some sort of awareness course?
Probably not but thought I would ask the question.
666
QUOTE (erind123 @ Wed, 9 Mar 2016 - 10:51) *
I'm hoping photos may jog her memory as to how it happened. Just grasping at straws really. She will be ringing this morning anyway.
Since it will be a court summons, have there been any instances of similar cases avoiding points and just paying a fine and attending some sort of awareness course?
Probably not but thought I would ask the question.


The courts cannot offer courses.

If she pleads guilty there will be a discount on the fine, but points are inevitable.
Jlc
Unfortunately points are likely to be inevitable. The only way to avoid points is to be found not guilty or whether there are 'special reasons not to endorse'. To be honest it doesn't appear that either of these are possible - but she may get some more info when the court paperwork arrives to see if there are any angles.
erind123
That's what I thought . Thanks for your help with all of this. She has spoken to the police who wont send her the photos, but they have explained that as she went through the lights there was a bus coming from the right and there were pedestrians waiting at a crossing. My daughter has remembered that night after thinking about it and she said that she was in the left hand lane behind buses that were going straight on. she said that the buses stopped on the yellow lines in the centre of the crossroads, so she pulled out into the middle lane in order to get away from the queue of buses and carried on not realising that the lights were on red. She said that she doesn't recall the bus coming from the right or any pedestrians. She said she would have remembered if there had been any close calls. In view of the photographic evidence is this likely to be just 3 points and a fine or will they charge her for carelessness or dangerous driving?
Needless to say she is worried sick as am I.
Jlc
It does sound like she was distracted by the bus and failed to observe the signal. She'll have to wait and see what charges they pursue on the summons/requisition - hopefully just for the red light offence but there may be scope for careless. But there's no point fretting until then - they have 6 months to start proceedings and annoyingly it often takes this long.
jdh
A green light that changes as a slow moving bus passes obscuring her view of it could easily see several seconds of red elapse without her realising as she's focussed on other traffic. From a trying to understand what happened point of view it would be a lot easier to work it out of the police did release any pics, she can't learn from the event if she doesn't know what she did wrong after all.
erind123
I agree. There are a lot of buses in rush hour on a Friday. If we could see the pics it would be very helpful, but they said they cant send them. She would only be able to see them in court. Very frustrating! I suppose we will just have to wait for the court summons and take it from there.
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (erind123 @ Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 12:32) *
I have looked at a couple of quotes, as if she were a year older with 1 years no claims and the points. Unfortunately the cheapest came to £2500!! without the points just over £1000.
One mistake means she wont be driving for a few years. A harsh lesson to be learnt.

I'm massively surprised by such an increase. Perhaps go to a broker, as many of my friends got points at 17/18 and none were priced off the road like that! An extra £20-£150 seemed normal I think.
erind123
I have only done the comparison sites, and all were 2500 plus. Liverpool is especially high regarding insurance but I'm shocked I must admit. Have you any suggestions of who else I could try?
peterguk
QUOTE (erind123 @ Thu, 10 Mar 2016 - 22:51) *
I have only done the comparison sites, and all were 2500 plus. Liverpool is especially high regarding insurance but I'm shocked I must admit. Have you any suggestions of who else I could try?


IMHO the loading is going to be nearer to £1000 than £250.
erind123
Well that does seem to be the case. It's hard to justify paying such a high price. It's either pay or she doesn't drive for years. A little lottery win would be nice!!
StickyBread
QUOTE (erind123 @ Tue, 8 Mar 2016 - 12:32) *
I have looked at a couple of quotes, as if she were a year older with 1 years no claims and the points. Unfortunately the cheapest came to £2500!! without the points just over £1000.
One mistake means she wont be driving for a few years. A harsh lesson to be learnt.



Don't get too hung up on this - I checked my insurance after I had a bit of a bump to test what it would be next year and the price I had back was massive! Got round to renewal, and my insurance dropped, just not as much as it would have done!
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (erind123 @ Thu, 10 Mar 2016 - 22:51) *
I have only done the comparison sites, and all were 2500 plus. Liverpool is especially high regarding insurance but I'm shocked I must admit. Have you any suggestions of who else I could try?

Try a broker if you have any locally- this isn't worth doing until closer to renewal time though.

Also try going direct to a few insurers who don't do comparison sites. Direct Line are one, and I think Co-Op are another.

Unless your daughter drives a mental car I don't understand why your quotes are so high.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 10 Mar 2016 - 22:56) *
IMHO the loading is going to be nearer to £1000 than £250.

I checked with my friend today- he was '£20 or £25' difference in price with a TS10 conviction. It actually fell after year one, and the £20 referred to declaring the conviction rather than not declaring it. He did get another 3 points for speeding when he was just over his two year period. The SP30 combined with the TS10 when he was aged 19/20 did lead to a considerable difference in premium- around £300, but I wonder if thats because he also had modifications and was limited as to who he could go to for insurance.

Granted I was 22, but my CU80 for using a phone only made an £80 difference, and still resulted in my insurance dropping in price overall that year. And CU80 is a far worse code than a TS10. Almost three years on and it now makes a difference of about £40 IIRC.
erind123
Thanks for all the info. I'm feeling a bit more hopeful that the difference may not be as significant when it comes to renewal time. Fingers crossed!
erind123
My daughters court summons has finally arrived. Her court date is 2nd December.
She has the option to complete the forms online, by post or attend the hearing. We have decided to plead guilty online. However I was wondering if we should add any mitigating circumstances? She is obviously guilty of the offence, but wasn't aware that she had gone through a red light. She had just passed her test 2 days before and was in a very busy city centre in rush hour traffic. She wasn't speeding but obviously hasn't seen the lights or was distracted by buses and heavy traffic. The police wont supply any photographic evidence so cant be sure exactly what happened. She also had a black box fitted to her car a few days after the incident. She has been getting good driving feedback since it has been fitted, and has been awarded a good driver discount last month, and on track to receive another discount at the next price review. Is it worth including the above info on the forms in addition to her admission of guilt? Any help would be great. Thanks.


The Rookie
2nd December? That's mad!

Not much that she can say really, there is no real mitigation, probably best to just write an abject letter apologising for a moments inattention while trying to change lane to pass a stationary bus.
erind123
I know I cant believe it takes that long!
Ok thanks, I will tell her to write a short letter.
erind123
Hi,

Is this covering letter ok to send with my daughters postal plea? Or is this too much waffle?

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to express how sorry and ashamed I am that I have committed this offence. I would never purposely go through a red light, and was not aware that I had done so. I was therefore extremely shocked and upset to receive a letter from the police through the post. At the time of the incident I had just passed my driving test two days before. It was my first time driving in a busy city centre. I do recall that Victoria Street was extremely busy with traffic and buses, as it was rush hour. I am not sure how I managed to pass through a set of lights without realising they were on red. I can only assume that I was momentarily distracted when I changed lanes in order to pass a stationary bus.
Since this incident I have had a black box fitted to my car. I consistently get good feedback for safe driving, and also received a discount at my last review. I am also on track to receive another discount at my next review date.
I am very sorry and upset that this has happened and hope that I can continue to drive, as my car is important for me to travel to college and also my place of work on a weekend.

erind123
Hi I was wondering if someone would be able to help with my last post please.

I posted a copy of the letter we intend sending with my daughters postal summons. I just want to make sure that its ok to send.

Thanks in advance.
BaggieBoy
I'm not sure what you think the letter will achieve, she will be getting 3 points regardless.
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