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sambly
Hi
I received a PCN for being in a bus lane on 9/9/2015.
I responded with my representation.
Today i received a letter stating that they rejected my appeal.
That is almost 6 month after the initial incident.
I have long ago discarded the original letter and due to our old computer breaking do not have a copy of my original appeal.
due to the time that has passed, I really do not recall the whole incident in detail.
because of the delay in responding to me I am not really able to argue this, as I had believed that this was now resolved as more than 5 months has passed.
Can I do anything other than appeal which I am not able to effectively at this late stage?
thanks


here is the photo they sent on their letter
DancingDad
Under Bus Lane act and Regs there is no specified time limit to respond/reject.
However, common law requires them to act in a reasonable timely manner, for precisely the reasons you mention, fading memory and loss of evidence.
We can also compare (but not cite) time limits put in place under Traffic Management Act 2004 which does impose a 56 day limit on responding to formal challenges.

Given the above, I would appeal citing unreasonable time delay which prejudices your ability to recall events or defend against the allegations.
In cases where an enforcement authority have acted unreasonably, the ground is that the penalty exceeds the amount due given the circumstances of the case.
sambly
as i have already appealed and be turned down can they then say i have to pay the full amount?
DancingDad
You haven't appealed.... that would be to adjudicators.
At the moment you have challenged the PCN and been rejected.
If they have re-offered the discount, that is one option for you to consider.
If they haven't, you have to option to appeal to adjudicators as my first post.
Yes, if you lose, you will need to pay the full amount.

Without more details on the case, difficult to advise much else unless anyone knows anything specific on that bus lane.
Mad Mick V
Post up their rejection in full please. It may contain flaws. Did they not re-offer the discount?

Following on from DD's post, if you wish to appeal, I would add something like this:-

Undue delay has caused unfairness both in Common Law and under the terms of Article 6 of the ECHR and there is obvious prejudice. Authorities have a duty to exercise their powers with reasonable expedition and fairness.
Davis-v- Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (PATAS 1970198981) considered that a delay of more than 2/3 months in responding to an appellant's representations was prima facie evidence of unfairness in the absence of explanation. This I believe is a valid point because we have not had any explanation as to the reason for such excessive delay.

Davis also contains the line " the unconscionable delay in the case has severely prejudiced the Appellant’s ability to collate and preserve evidence".

For these reasons continued enforcement is not sustainable. Any continuance in the circumstances would strongly suggest that the City of Bristol's Transport Department's sole purpose is the collection of revenue.

Mick
Enceladus
Please post up scrubbed scans of all pages of the rejection notice. And whole pages only please. At the moment we appear to have incomplete parts of two pages.

Do you know when you sent your challenge, even approximately? Assuming your challenge/representations weren't submitted months late then I would appeal to the Adjudicator as per the advice above. It's £60 at stake though.

Scrubbed = obscure or redact your name & address if applicable, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave everything else visible especially all time, date, location and enforcement authority info.

Photos are fine if you have no scanner. Please make sure the images are flat and well lit. Use close-up / macro mode if available. Try and have the images the right way up, some of the members won't even try and read them if they are sideways. Don't try and re-size the images, let the forum software handle that.

Some judiciously cut up pieces of paper, eg post-it note, are good for obscuring. Please leave visible all time, date, location and council/enforcement authority info.

Please open a free of charge basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com or dropbox.com or similar. I use tinypic without complaint. There are numerous others. Log in and upload your scans, photos etc. Copy and paste the provided IMG links into your posts on here. Et voilà!
sambly
wow, how helpful are you all!!!
thanks
the original notice was sent 10 days after the incident according to them, and my recall is that i replied within a day or two at most.

As far as I remember at this point, I had moved into the left hand lane as I was turning left, and mistakenly thought that the exit they pictured was the one I wanted. I realised my mistake, so didn't turn in there. I realised it was the next left I wanted and looked to the right to go back into that lane . I saw that it was completely jammed and not moving at all. It would not have been possible for them to let me in even if willing. My options were to wait in the lane I was in (the bus lane and block it) or to more the short distance to the next left turn where I would be out of the way.
But like I said memory if fallible and thinking that this was long ago resolved and having plenty of other things on my mind I can't rely ion the total accuracy of this....





sorry I couldn't get them into the Choose file box we have just changed to MAC and Im still bewildered an floundering to get anything to work!

Thanks AGAIN
SAM

Oh no!
I took these photos the right way up and they've turned! grrr
At least they appeared, I thought that might not to work at all.



how do i edit them to turn them round? anyone know?
DancingDad
Date posted 19th so deemed date of service 23rd... that is day one when calculation deadlines... just so you know.
Envelope got a post mark date ?
sambly
postmark on this letter is 22.02.16
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (sambly @ Thu, 25 Feb 2016 - 13:24) *
postmark on this letter is 22.02.16


don't lose that envelope
PASTMYBEST
Cn you con firm location

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.42998,-2....3312!8i6656


And did you take the next left turn.

What you say has credibility, not knowing the area, then at the end of the bus lane, you move to the left( the correct driving position). Through the bus lane another bus lane starts
The traffic is heavy, so you stop and wait or continue until a gap opens for you to move over, the distance to your turning is less than 100meters from the traffic lights

The total distance from the start of the bus lane to your turn is approx. 30 meters the length of bus lane you encroached upon no more than 15 meters. By any stretch
you made the right call, and any encroachment must be DE minimis

The measurements quoted are approximate taken from google measure but you can see what I mean from this view

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4303919,-...#33;3m1!1e3
sambly
hi
I turned down west park lane I think I moved into the left lane at Bridlington retail park but it may have been flowers Hill...Its too long ago and I can't be sure now.... :/
DancingDad
Not too late to ask for the video to refresh memory... will be the first thing an adjudicator looks at so better asking now then being surprised on the day.

At the moment, the main points seem to be
Not Occurred
Reliant on memory but pulled into bus lane to turn left, realised it was wrong turn and could not get back out due to weight of traffic.

Procedural Errors, ground of Penalty Exceeds.
Failure of authority to act in a reasonable and timely manner
Failure of authority to post the rejection notice on the date stated. This removes the certainty on timings and deadlines that the act creates and could severly prejudice the recipient of such a delayed notice.
sambly
thank you you excellent people!

just had my reply, and my appeal was upheld!!!

Adjudicator’s Decision
ME v Bristol City Council Vehicle: My Car
Case Number: OB00108

PCN Number
Date of PCN
Date of Contraven on
Loca on
Contraven on
Time
Decision
£60 Penalty Charge to Pay
OB81989426
18 September 2015
09 September 2015
Bath Road (A4) (Bus Lane3- (West Town Lane))
34E
09.45
Allowed
Nothing to pay
34E - Being in a bus lane
Appeal Allowed on the grounds of a collateral challenge.
I direct Bristol City Council to cancel the penalty charge no ce.
Reasons
I will quote ...
appeal in full, and as she presented it:
“The incident occurred 09/09/2015 and I appealed immediately on receiving the PCN. I received no correspondence un l ge ng the rejec on postmarked 22/02/2016 (but dated as sent on 19/02/2016). I believe that this is an unreasonable me delay which prejudices my ability to recall events or defend against the allega ons. The rejec on did not arrive un l almost 6 months a er the incident occurred, and more than 5 months a er I sent my appeal. un l receiving the rejec on I believed that this ma er was long resolved and no longer have copies of the original le ers from the authority or my appeal. I also now nd it di cult too recall the incident with su cient clarity due to the passing of me. What I believe that I recall is that i mistakenly turned le before I had intended to. I think the sign that they used as evidence is not on the exit I would have used to turn back onto the road, and was not visible to me as I turned back into the tra c. Again not having access to my original le er and the passing of me make this di cult to be sure about. I think that I ini ally took the le hand lane as I was taking the next le turning, and then realised that it was a bus lane. I not
that the rejec on says that I did not a empt to go back into the right hand lane. I am fairly certain that this was because the right hand lane was en rely congested. So I was le with the op on of remaining sta onary in the bus lane un l the tra c in the right lane moved and someone would let me in or con nuing to the next exit. It may have taken some considerable mer someone to let me in even a er the tra c had started moving, and could have led to my blocking it for any busses that came along. I also I felt I would be at risk. The lane i was in had not busses or other tra c so this seemed like the best and safest op on.”
The video evidence now supplied by the Council shows Ms Lindberg’s car driving in the bus lane. Ms Lindberg will have been able to look at it.
Be that as it may, her rst complaint in her appeal is about the delay on the part of Bristol City Council in dealing with her ini al representa ons. The Council acknowledge the delay and have explained the steps they have taken to improve ma ers. I appreciate that someone at the Council nally looked at Ms Lindberg’s case and the camera footage. However there has been prejudice caused to Ms Lindberg, because as she explains, she could not clearly recall events, and had sent her account of what happened ve months previously in the form on the No ce to Owner.
The bus lane regula ons require an authority to consider representa ons. In dealing with civil enforcement of parking regula ons Bristol City Council must deal with representa ons within 56 days, and must consider compelling reasons. It cons tutes a procedural impropriety if they fail to do either or both. Although the bus lane regula ons do not contain these provisions (but the more recent ones applying to authori es in Wales do) the Council nonetheless has a general duty in administra ve law to exercise its power in good me and fairly. Just because there are not the same express provisions in the bus lane civil enforcement regula ons as there are in the later parking ones, that is no reason for Bristol City Council to treat people making representa ons about a bus lane penalty charge less fairly than those making representa ons about a penalty charge imposed for a parking contraven on.
I note that in future the council will be dealing with representa ons within 21 days. Nonetheless, the delay and prejudicial unfairness in this case means Bristol Council have forfeited the right (‘estopped’) to require payment of this penalty. That in legal terms is a collateral challenge. In the circumstances I am recording that the appeal has been allowed.
Caroline Sheppard Chief Adjudicator 02 April 2016
Incandescent
Very well done !! And well done to Caroline Sheppard for cutting through Bristol CC cr*p and getting to the heart of the matter, namely the ridiculously excessive delay. A good decision and one other councils would do well to look at, (of course we all know on this forum they won't !)

It needs to go into the thread for cases of importance,but I'm going to bed now !
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