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ajrimmer
Last week I received an Order for Recovery for £202 from Hammersmith and Fulham council relating to an offence of stopping in a box junction on 1/9/2015. This is the first thing I received from them, the reasons for which are:

1. I moved house on 9/9/2015
2. As it was a very busy time I didn't get around to informing my lease company until 24/9/15
3. I only set up mail redirection from 26/10/15

So It's mainly my fault, however both my first name and surname are misspelled on the notice so I don't know if Royal Mail would have redirected any previous letters.

I called the lease company and asked when they had provided my details and they said it was on 21/9/15, so it's a shame they didn't inform me of this or notice it on my file when I contacted them about the change of address.

What I am wondering is, should something have been sent to me following the first NTO, and if so, when would that have been? Would I be right in thinking my only recourse is to complete the statutory declaration saying that I did not receive anything previously? It looks like I have to get that witnessed by a solicitor, is that correct?

I can post the notices if it would help, but I have looked at the evidence photos online and it looks like there isn't much point in contesting that the offence occurred. My girlfriend was driving and she was stationary in the box for about 40 seconds sad.gif
Enceladus
When exactly did you receive the Order for Recovery and what date is on it?

It should include a Statutory Declaration. Assuming you are still in time then submit the SD to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court. You will have to get the SD witnessed. This can be done FOC at any convenient County Court. Ring and check opening hours first. Else a Solicitor will charge £5-$10. Tick the box to the effect that you did not receive the original PCN. Don't go into unnecessary detail.

Keep a photocopy and post fist class at the Post Office counter and obtain and keep safe a free of charge "proof of posting" certificate.
ajrimmer
Hi, thanks for your help. The Order is dated 12/1/16 and I received it on 19/1/16. The postmark is the 18th.

Should I limit my statement to something like "I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house and it was not forwarded to me"?
Neil B
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2016 - 10:08) *
Hi, thanks for your help. The Order is dated 12/1/16 and I received it on 19/1/16. The postmark is the 18th.

Should I limit my statement to something like "I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house and it was not forwarded to me"?

To be honest I don't understand what that box is there for.
Despite it demanding full details it makes no difference.
But yes, what you've written is simple enough.

Don't forget to tick the apprpriate box.

DON'T sign until in the presence of the Court Officer.
Most Cty Cts run an appt system for counter services now. Look up yours and phone.

(keep that envelope for later btw)

_
btw.
You can e-mail this in to TEC if scan the signed, sworn and witnessed PE3 and attach as pdf.
Check e-mail address with TEC.

Post with proof if easier, as Enceladus said.
John U.K.
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2016 - 10:08) *
Hi, thanks for your help. The Order is dated 12/1/16 and I received it on 19/1/16. The postmark is the 18th.

Should I limit my statement to something like "I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house and it was not forwarded to me"?


You do not know it was not forwarded to you. So try (but wait and see if Enceladus comments)

"I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house and it was not forwarded to me"? nor any subsequent paperwork until the OfR although I had moved house and mail re-direction was in place

Not sure whether to include nor any subsequent paperwork until the OfR
ajrimmer
Good points, thanks. I don't think I will be able to get to a court as they are only open on weekdays, so I've asked my local solicitor what they would charge.
Neil B
No.
Go back to 'as' I had moved.
'although' is out of context.

The only subsequent doc was Charge Cert and, since not actionable, irrelevant.
ajrimmer
How about "I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house, even though mail re-direction was in place"?
Neil B
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2016 - 12:02) *
How about "I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice as I had moved house, even though mail re-direction was in place"?


Yeah ok but you're worrying too much; it's an automatic process.
ajrimmer
Can I please check what address to put on the PE3 form? It says it must match the address on the OfR but that has my previous address on it, and my name mis-spelled. I'm worried that any further paperwork will go to the old address and might not be forwarded again.
Neil B
Is the vehicle now registered with DVLA at the new address?

QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 15:52) *
Can I please check what address to put on the PE3 form? It says it must match the address on the OfR but that has my previous address on it, and my name mis-spelled. I'm worried that any further paperwork will go to the old address and might not be forwarded again.

It doesn't say that: It says, "All details above"

You are not the first to misunderstand.

But do also check with TEC.
ajrimmer
Oh yes so it does icon_redface.gif

It's a lease car so the leasing company is the owner and registered keeper I believe. I did inform them of my change of address so if the DVLA needed to be advised I assume they would have done it.
Neil B
I only asked about DVLA in case, when reset, the Council re-check and send to whatever DVLA hold.

TEC will respond to your current address, on PE3.
Council shouldthen only reissue there.
Enceladus
I'm confused.

Was it your name, albeit misspelt, on the OFR?
Was it your address, even a previous address, on the OFR?

And to what extent is your name misspelt?

If it's the lease company's name and address on the OFR then they need to deal with it, not you.
Assuming it is you, then put your name correctly spelt and your current address address in the box.
Don't forget to the form witnessed before you post it. And keep a photocopy.

For the purposes of the form, the LBH&F are the applicant, you are the respondent.

Since the lease company is the RK recorded by the DVLA then you would not be able to inform the DVLA of your change of address. However the terms of the lease presumably stipulate that you should inform the lease company immediately of any change of address.


ajrimmer
The OFR has my name and previous address on it. They changed one letter in my first name and added an extra letter in my surname.

The lease company said they initially received the NTO on 21/9/15 and transferred the liability to me.

I've been to the local solicitors this morning and had the form witnessed, and I then scanned it in and emailed it to the TEC. Should I expect a reply from them or will the next thing be a new PCN?
Enceladus
You should get a letter, ie a court order from Northampton County Court, revoking the Order for Recovery and Charge Certificate and also cancelling the existing PCN. The order will also inform you that the Council can serve a new PCN. The order should be issued tomorrow. The council will be informed electronically at 4pm tomorrow. There seems to be delays posting out the orders at the moment. Might take 7-10 days to reach you.
ajrimmer
Thanks to everyone for your help icon_thumleft.gif
Enceladus
You should also have received an acknowledgement email from the TEC, within a few minutes of your email to them? If you didn't get one then I suggest you check your spam folder. If needs be, ring the TEC and confirm receipt.
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 2 Feb 2016 - 12:33) *
You should also have received an acknowledgement email from the TEC, within a few minutes of your email to them? If you didn't get one then I suggest you check your spam folder. If needs be, ring the TEC and confirm receipt.


Sorry I didn't see your post before. I did get the confirmation email after 15 minutes or so.

Despite me putting my new address on the form and mentioning in my email that I had moved, they still sent the letter out to my old address. It was forwarded by the Royal Mail though so at least I got it. Is it worth getting in touch with H&F to make sure the reissued PCN comes to the right place?
Mad Mick V
You have yourself a procedural impropriety which could win you the case. See Sect 17 of the Schedule to the Appeals Regs:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made

Did they follow the procedure? No!!!!

I wouldn't do anything but keep an eye out for redirected post. If they send the PCN to your old address they are deeper in the clag.

Mick
Neil B
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 14:49) *
Despite me putting my new address on the form they still sent the letter out to my old address.

Are you referring to the revoking Order from TEC?
ajrimmer
Oh that's interesting, thanks! Does it matter that these were the documents from the court rather than the enforcement authority?
Neil B
-
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 15:10) *
You have yourself a procedural impropriety which could win you the case. See Sect 17 of the Schedule to the Appeals Regs:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/3482/schedule/made

Did they follow the procedure? No!!!!

Entirely different part of the process and wrong Regs Mick.
It's MTC
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 14:49) *
Despite me putting my new address on the form they still sent the letter out to my old address.

Are you referring to the revoking Order from TEC?


Yes, that's all I've received so far.
Neil B
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 15:29) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Mon, 15 Feb 2016 - 14:49) *
Despite me putting my new address on the form they still sent the letter out to my old address.

Are you referring to the revoking Order from TEC?


Yes, that's all I've received so far.

It's a bit odd.
So, sorry obvious questions but you put your current address in box left- top-ish on PE3. ?

ajrimmer
Yes, I put my current address (and correctly spelled name) in this box.

Click to view attachment

And in the email I wrote "As my address has changed since the PCN was issued please confirm that any further correspondence will be sent to my new address as per the form."
Neil B
The e-mail is likely handled by a machine; text rendered pointless.

Yes, alert H&F (Keep a record). They may have already issued.

Depending how good their records it could even go to lease Co. again.
Enceladus
Something is awry.
Please post up a scrubbed scan of whatever you received, all pages.

Scrubbed = obscure or redact your name & address where applicable, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave everything else visible especially all time, date, location and council info.

Photos are fine if you have no scanner. Please make sure the images are flat and well lit. Use close-up / macro mode if available. Try and have the images the right way up, some of the members won't even try and read them if they are sideways. Don't try and re-size the images, let the forum software handle that.

Some judiciously cut up pieces of paper, eg post-it note, are good for obscuring. Please leave visible all time, date, location and council/enforcement authority info.

Please open a free of charge basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com or dropbox.com or similar. I use tinypic without complaint. There are numerous others. Log in and upload your scans, photos etc. Copy and paste the provided IMG links into your posts on here. Et voilà!
ajrimmer
OK here goes. This is the first bunch of notices that arrived:








And this is what I received back from the TEC:


I have the traffic camera photos if they would help?
Incandescent
You need to view the video, as that is the sole evidence of the contravention. If you can remember, tell us what happened. Two things -

1. The offence is stopping in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
2. Stop times of seconds or less can be appealed under de minimis, but not all adjudicators agree with this, so it all depends on whether you get a "hanging judge" on the day at adjudication.

Following moving vehicles into a box which then stop leaving you in the box is not a get-out, you should not have followed them in. However if you move into the box with a clear exit and somebody forces their way across your path forcing you to stop, then there is no offence.

Best to see the video as soon as you can, (or pay-up, of course !)
Neil B
Methinks OfR is flawed (wrong period in which to make a Stat Dec or pay)

What came in the envelope franked 18/1/16 ?
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 11:43) *
What came in the envelope franked 18/1/16 ?


That was what the PCN and OfR came in, along with the PE2 and PE3 forms.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 11:43) *
Methinks OfR is flawed (wrong period in which to make a Stat Dec or pay)


Would that matter, now that the OfR has been revoked?
Neil B
QUOTE (ajrimmer @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 11:54) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 11:43) *
What came in the envelope franked 18/1/16 ?


That was what the PCN and OfR came in, along with the PE2 and PE3 forms.
So they sent a copy of the PCN with the OfR?
OfR is dated 12/1. If posted 18/1 they are potentially f****d.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 11:43) *
Methinks OfR is flawed (wrong period in which to make a Stat Dec or pay)


Would that matter, now that the OfR has been revoked?

So no prejudice was caused, partly due to seeking advice here.
Doesn't make the OfR lawful if it had the potential to prejudice (anyone receiving one) if it shortens the time you have to act.
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 12:05) *
So they sent a copy of the PCN with the OfR?
OfR is dated 12/1. If posted 18/1 they are potentially f****d.


Yes, everything I received from LBHF came all at once, in that envelope.
Neil B
Ok.
OfR dated 12th, posted 18th is grossly unlawful.

Need to wait for new PCN now.
Did you check where it's gone , per discussion yesterday?
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 12:29) *
Ok.
OfR dated 12th, posted 18th is grossly unlawful.

Need to wait for new PCN now.
Did you check where it's gone , per discussion yesterday?


I did email the lease company to see if they have received anything, but they have not replied yet. I will see if I can find a number to call H&F and ask.
Enceladus
AIUI the Court Order from the TEC at Northampton County Court;
was posted to your old address?
Luckily it reached you as you have mail forwarding in place?
Your name, correctly spelt, was in the address box on the SD form?
Your current address was also in the address box of the SD form?
The SD form did not have your old address anywhere on the form?

& "And in the email I wrote"
"As my address has changed since the PCN was issued please confirm that any further correspondence will be sent to my new address as per the form."

Regardless of the email, the TEC should have sent the Court Order to the Respondent's address as stated and sworn on the Statutory Declaration.

So I would ring the TEC PDQ and ask why the Order was sent to your old address? Assuming this was just an oversight then ask them to re-issue the order to the correct address and to notify H&F accordingly.

You want all subsequent correspondence to be addressed and posted to your correct and current address. In particular the revised PCN, which I imagine H&F will choose to serve on you.
ajrimmer
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 13:23) *
AIUI the Court Order from the TEC at Northampton County Court;
was posted to your old address?
Luckily it reached you as you have mail forwarding in place?
Your name, correctly spelt, was in the address box on the SD form?
Your current address was also in the address box of the SD form?
The SD form did not have your old address anywhere on the form?


Yes, that is all correct. I'll call the TEC as you suggest, thanks.
ajrimmer
I called TEC and they said they couldn't reissue the notice as it was now out of the hands of the court. I then rang H&F and they told me that a new PCN was sent out *to my new address* yesterday! It all seems a bit odd!
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