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bongo_boy
Today I received a notice to keeper / notice to owner (NTK) from Bath council out of the blue. sad.gif

I never received a PCN, not that i'm sure some monkey couldn't have pinched it so that the 50% discount deadline was missed etc.

I have logged into the BANES (Bath & North East Somerset) website to view the photo's of the 'offence'.

In one photo I can see a dim photo of number plate which matches mine. The vehicle colour could be correct too. It could just as easily be silver though, rather than white. But other than that the photo's are pitch black. These photo's were obviously taken at night without a flash. I believe copies of these photos are attached (?). I have obscured my reg though as don't particularly want to broadcast this.

I can not see anything else. No kerb, road sign, parking notice, road lines, not even the distinguishable badge of the vehicle.

My understanding is contesting a council issued ticket is generally a loosing battle. However, in this instance I genuinely believe it's either a clone car/plate, or they've got the details wrong some how.

What is my best course of action please? I have 24days left to appeal.

Many thanks in advance for your advice.

NB photo's removed to clear attachment space
hcandersen
I never received a PCN or I was never there?

They're mutually exclusive.

And when you then go on to say that someone possibly removed the PCN in the same breath as I genuinely believe it was a clone, I get twitchy.

C'mon OP.

I was there but didn't find a PCN is one line;
My car wasn't there is another.

The supporting arguments are different.
bongo_boy
hcanderson,
I was merely sticking to the facts I have rather than giving excuses. Maybe I should not have speculated either.

Fact: I was in Weymouth that day, albeit I travelled by train.
Fact: I never received a PCN
Fact: Everyone I know who had access to my vehicle denies driving it there.

However, which ever way I look at it your post is of no help in reducing my fine (fact).

But that's not to say my family aren't lying and they did drive it and did receive a PCN. Either way I currently have a £70 bill that I do not want to pay.

Now based on the evidence provided to me by the council, supposedly indicating where my vehicle was meant to have been, the council appear to have 4-5 awful photos. As such I can not even say the vehicle was not on my own driveway when the photo's were taken. In my opinion, this is NOT evidence of a parking violation.

As such I want to contest this as I have no reason to believe the facts i have stated above are correct. If the photo's were clear, i would have no argument with the council and i would instead have some family members to interrogate.

I was recommended from another forum, where a helpful member suggested to come here for council related help/advice.

So please, if you have advice I would appreciate it.
orford
QUOTE
I have posted on pepipoo but quickly got an unhelpful reply from someone, nit picking at what I'd written (copied and pasted from above) rather than offering any glimmer of help.


HCA was not nit picking. He was merely trying to get the facts straight, in order to give pertinent advice. Your second post made the situation much clearer.

You need to post up the pcn.
bongo_boy

QUOTE
You need to post up the pcn.


Hi orford,
Thanks for the reply. Please clarify what you mean by pcn.

If you're refering to a windscreen ticket (which is what i understand by pcn), then there isn't one.

The only thing i have is the notice to owner. I can post that if it helps?
DancingDad
Please do post the NTO.

With the clarifications (you do need to excuse questions as we do need to get facts straight) it seems that various grounds could apply.

Contravention did not Occur
I was not driving that day and my car was parked on my drive.
As far as I know, no one else used my car that day.
Enclosed is proof of my whereabouts (train tickets) if possible
As my vehicle was not at the location, no contravention could have occurred.

Contravention did not occur.
I have reviewed the evidence photos and while they show a light coloured car with my numberplate, there is no evidence of any restriction, location or even anything specific that I can identify as my car.

The vehicle was parked by someone without my consent.
If the car was there it was without my knowledge or consent.

None seem overly strong and councils can duck them so expect this to end up at adjudication.
If you can convince an adjudicator that the above bits are true, you win
If not, you lose.

Personally I'd want something else so let's see the NTO and see if we can find anything.

Re the clone, Study the photos, pick out anything that may point to the motor being a clone, if you can find anything, toddle along to police and report, ask for a crime number.
This would help your case.

Taking without owners consent ground, people who are named drivers are generally regarded as having implied consent.
Incandescent
We need to see the NtO before any more useful advice can be given. For a Reg 9 PCN no photos are needed, they are a courtesy to speed up disputes on the lines "it worn't my car, guv" The photos you have attached seem to be pixelated. Have yo done this or were they like that from the council

Essentially the way things stand at present, you have lost the discount, so it is a no-brainer to take them to adjudication on this if you are adamant it cannot be your car. If a car other than yours is running around with your reg. no. I suspect you'll be getting more than just this PCN/NtO in the future.
bongo_boy
Hi All,
Thanks for all the follow ups. Last night a very helpful member sent me a PM as they've obviously some skills on photo shop and refined and improved the photo's. This didn't add a lot, but the vehicle seems to be correct make & model (they also know their cars as there wasn't a lot to go on IMO).

However, further family interrogation has resulted in my vehicle 'possibly' being there. So given that everything was bluntly refuted previously I'm taking it that it was there. But by the same token, no PCN was ever received. I think the arrival of the fine (NTO) was the cause of the denial, which I can understand.

I'm going to kindly ask the photoshop master who helped clean the photo's to see if the photo's show a PCN on the vehicle at all. As I know when I've had tickets previously, the issuer always shows the vehicle with the ticket on it very clearly.

As for myself, I do not have the train tickets from my trip to Weymouth. These are long gone as I had no reason to keep them. I'm going to see if I have any card payments to local stores which can at least put me there, as it was a social occasion. Though knowing the occasion I think most things were paid in cash from a kitty, so fingers crossed.

Facts i now have are:
Vehicle probably was there as the photo's are of the correct model vehicle.
The road in question is a single yellow line from memory. I'm going to check as soon as i can what signs or permit restrictions there are (becuase in Bath there are loads).
The photo's do not clearly show any distinguishing features as to any location, lines, or signs, even after editing/improving using photoshop.
No PCN was ever received. (Will wait to see if any pics show one on the vehicle to see if one was ever given).
As the registered keeper, I was away - albeit I do not have any proof of this - yet.


Please see attached the NTO. I have included every side of the writing (5 sides). EDIT - I have shown the first 2 sides only due to attachment space being exceeded.

Thank you all again for your advice.
Neil B
QUOTE (bongo_boy @ Wed, 13 Jan 2016 - 09:02) *
As the registered keeper, I was away - albeit I do not have any proof of this - yet.


This has apparently been central to your thinking in previous posts, i.e. how you are viewing the situation.

As RK you are legally considered owner unless you can prove otherwise. As owner, you are liable.



Front of NtO misadvises you of the correct 28 day period.

It will help if you can establish some real life grounds rather than appealing only on
a technicality, however strong.
hcandersen
+1.

You are liable.

Non-service is a defence, but the driver not finding a PCN isn't. Proving the former would be difficult as you weren't there and we still seem to be in the realms of 'possibly there' so no one's recollection is likely to be solid, is it?

If the CEO's notes state that a PCN was served then let's take this as a working hypothesis.

IMO, at present your best approach is simply to make reps on the basis that you were not driving and therefore have no personal recollection. As the registered keeper, you have viewed the authority's evidence and are unable to find that this supports the allegation - you refer the authority to their photos which show no distinguishing marks or give any support to their contention. On the basis of the information presented by the authority in the NTO and online you have no choice but to make reps on the basis that the contravention did not occur. If the authority reject these reps then you require them to support this with evidence in the form of CEO's notes and clear photographs.
DancingDad
+2

Neil is right that the deadline for payment/challenge is incorrect being extended by one day more then the mandatory period stipulated by the regulations.
It is not for local councils to alter prescribed time periods that Parliament have set. To do so is a Procedural Impropriety. (though whether or not an adjudicator will accept and damn the PCN is a differing matter)

I'm intrigued why they seem to limit the act that they are enforcing under to TMA2004 S78.
To me that section is only the enabling section to allow creating regulations but in itself does not allow enforcement.
Thoughts anyone ?.... my own edit, they do show the relevant regs below so probably no mileage but does seem strange specifying S78

You've blanked the location so we cannot check signs and lines, worth looking at in case there are other matter that we can use

It is worth using the time available and not rushing in BTW...best to get everything in we can.
But don't miss deadline. Which should be 28 days starting with the date of service
bongo_boy
I'm in no particular rush to send my appeal so I am happy to wait until we've gathered as much of a cause together, and submit the stongest appeal I can.

Thanks for the strong start...

I really can't add anything other than questions. Though the name of the road in question is Sunderland Street

bongo_boy
I am now some months down the line with my appeal.

The council refused my appeal (not surprise there) and I have begun the process of appealing to an adjudicator.

The council have submitted the original dark (you cant see much) photos.

As part of my appeal I raised that in their notice of rejection, no information was sent on how to pay their fine.

This fine was also stated as £60 where as the original was £70.

Does this offer grounds for a procedural caffuffle? (i'm not sure of the official term)

Any last minute advice greatly appreciated.

Here is the original PCN (received during this appeal), and notice of rejection.





John U.K.
QUOTE
I have begun the process of appealing to an adjudicator.


QUOTE
Any last minute advice greatly appreciated.


HAve you registered the appeal?
If so, what is the date? Have you opted for personal/telephone/postal hearing?

If not, do so a.s.a.p. (you can always write I rely on my original representations and full submission (to follow) in the appropriate box).

Please post up you reps in response to NtO, to which the Council sent the NoRR above.
bongo_boy
error
bongo_boy
I have registered an appeal. This was submitted on the 1st march.

I have chosen not to request a hearing but to let a judicator decide and I will be notified when a decision has been made.

My post NTO reps was as follows:


"The alleged Contravention did not occur
I am in receipt of an NTO which relates to PCN no.xxxxxxxxxx.
To my knowledge, this PCN was never served on my vehicle or to any driver of my vehicle. I am sure your records will confirm this.
Should you wish to continue enforcement of the PCN, consider this a formal request for the following evidence:
-A copy of the original PCN
-Photos showing the PCN attached to my vehicle
-A copy of the CEO's notes.

As you will be aware, if a CEO is unable to serve a PCN by hand, he is required to serve one by post.
From the evidence presented, it is not possible to identify that any contravention occurred.
There is no evidence confirming parking of my vehicle in a restricted area.
There is no evidence that a PCN was issued.
There is no evidence that this is my vehicle - as I can not clearly make out the registration plate, make, model or colour of vehicle.

If the PCN is not cancelled, I will have no hesitation in taking my appeal to the independent adjudicator, where the requested evidence will have to be produced.."


The information posted in post#13 is the response I received by post, following my appeal to the council.

To the traffic penalty tribunal my initial entry was:

"My vehicle was not parked in the location suggested by the PCN on the date or time in question.
No PCN was attached to my vehicle.
No PCN was received by myself, only a notice to owner which was received by post.
No evidence presented to me (i.e., photographs) show the vehicle to be parked in the location stated.
No evidence shows the vehicle parked in a restricted area.
No evidence shows a PCN attached to the vehicle.
On the date in question I was in Weymouth, and believe this to be my whereabouts at the time of the alleged contravention. My credit card payments confirm this....

...Furthermore, on the documentation received dated 16th February 2016, there is no information on how to pay the fine should I have wish to - only information on how to appeal was complete."


Councils response:

"In addition to the Notice of Rejection the Authority would like to add the following.

The ‘see enclosure’ on the Notice of Rejection relates to the information on how to appeal and the required Traffic Penalty Tribunal insert/field. Should payment of the PCN been desired, the appellant had full payment details outlined on the Notice to Owner or could have contacted Parking Service at Bath and North East Somerset Council. The Authority does not believe this to invalidate the PCN.

The Mr xxxxxxx, the registered owner/keeper states that on the date the PCN was issued he was in Weymouth and their debit/credit card transaction confirm this. The Appellants whereabouts is not in dispute."


Online I can add comments. These are my comments and the only reply thus far:

me 17 March 2016 at 19:54:09
[i]I would like to draw attention to the notice of rejection whereby the 'fine' amount differs, stated as £60.
Having never received a PCN, should the case go against me, I would appreciate the 50% discount to be applied to this £60.
However, I believe there is insufficient evidence to prove this case against me.
[/i]

authority 18 March 2016 at 09:59:53
The Authority acknowledges the Notice of Rejection states that the amount payable is £60.00 and that this is incorrect.

me 19 March 2016 at 10:27:41
Drawing attention to the notice to owner, I was misadvised of of the correct 28 day period.
the deadline for payment/challenge is incorrect being extended by one day more then the mandatory period stipulated by the regulations.
It is not for local councils to alter prescribed time periods that Parliament have set. To do so is a Procedural Impropriety.


To the best of my knowledge this is all I can tell you at the moment unless you have specific questions?

I still have the ability to add comments or 'submit evidence' - i.e., where i can upload documents.

Thanks in advance for advice
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