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sugardew
Hi all,

Looking for some advice regarding a PCN I got today in Windsor while doing some shopping for the festive period.

So I parked in a road where it was stated on the sign "8am - 6pm Business Permit holders or pay at meter display ticket max stay 1 hour". Nothing else - nowhere was it stated "no return within xx hour" etc. The other side of the road also had the same sign too.

I parked for 1 hour between 12:58noon - 1:58pm and then came back and moved my car to the opposite side of the road with the same sign. And went and got another ticket for 1 hour, expiring 3:03pm.

When I returned, I found the PCN on my car issued at 2:50pm (please see image).

Granted I know I was being cheeky but I did assume I was not breaking any rules as I had parked for 1 hour with a legit parking ticket and then had moved my car (albeit to the other side of the same road, hence not returning to the same parking spot!) and paid for a new ticket for another hour.

I plan to contest the PCN on the above grounds that I had legitimately paid for my parking and not returned to the same spot, as well as point out that the sign did not specify that there was nothing that said I could not return to road and park elsewhere. Also, the PCN was issued from 2:50pm - 2:50pm - less than a minute (and my ticket expires at 3:03pm so it was issued when I had a parking ticket sitting on my windscreen which clearly shows I had not overstayed).

Anyone have any experience with this and can offer advice, if they were successful in contesting? Also, if anyone has other arguments that I can add in when I contest my PCN, I would be most grateful.

Many many thanks!


PASTMYBEST
Do you have the ticket, showing you had paid, the contravention cited is wrong from what you say. it should have been

22 Re-parked in the same parking place or zone within one hour (or other specified time) of leaving

That is if any contravention occurred the signs do no show one as per GSV but it is 18 months old

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4857478,-...3312!8i6656

Get and post up the CEO photos, these are most likely available online
Mad Mick V
The Parking Places Order is here:-

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/files/RW65.pdf

It indicates for the central zone covering Farm Yard :-

30 Save as provided in Articles 42 and 43, no person shall cause or permit any vehicle which has been taken away from a parking place during the permitted hours, to be left again in a pay and display parking place if a period less than that specified in Schedule 1 as being the period in which the vehicle shall not return has elapsed since a previous period of waiting by the same vehicle on the same parking place during the permitted hours.

If the parking place is defined by an area or a zone then I cannot see parking on the other side of the street causes an exemption. I hope other members have a different view.

Mick
hcandersen
Makes no difference what the order provides if, as the OP states, the signs do not convey the same.

This is another of those threads which have the capacity to generate numerous posts before we get the full facts, in particular the authority's photos which the OP must obtain and post ASP.

OP, you didn't leave your other ticket in view did you???? If you did this might explain the PCN. It doesn't justify or support it, merely explain it.

If your account is correct then no contravention occurred, end of.
sugardew
Hi,

Thanks for all the replies, really appreciate the different views.

I have both parking tickets with me still (luckily (!), as I nearly binned my first one as my toddler had crunched it up in his hand smile.gif . I removed the first ticket from said toddler's hand and stuck it in the glovebox (and closed it!) so there was definitely no other ticket on my dashboard or windscreen, except for the new one which was current for that time.

I am just going to go to the Council website to see if I can find any pictures the CEO took of my car. Will post these shortly if there is any.

With regards to PastMyBest's post of Google Maps Street View, yes, the signs have changed from the pic you have posted. It does clearly state "max stay 1 hour" on both sides of the road but it does not state about not returning and parking in a different space, on the same road.

Off to the RBWM website to look for those CEO pixes!

Thank you again!
sugardew
Right, so I've been through the entire Council website and there is nowhere to view the pictures related to my PCN.

I've tried to start to complete an online form to pay the PCN (in the hope I could see pictures taken of my car by the CEO showing the contravention), but it doesn't recognise the PCN number, saying that it may be available later and try tomorrow!

I've also tried to start an online informal challenge form to see the pictures but again, no pictures are provided when I enter my PCN number - just the form where I should enter details of why the PCN should be challenged.

How frustrating.

I will email the council now and ask for photos. Question - should I start the letter to challenge the PCN and ask for the CEO's photos then or just email requesting the photos and wait for their reply, before beginning to contest (within the time frame of 14 days so I still have the benefit of the discount, although I am hopeful it will be cancelled anyway smile.gif )?
emergencychimp
I don't think RBWM provide photos. I don't recall seeing any for my PCN from them.
DancingDad
QUOTE (sugardew @ Wed, 9 Dec 2015 - 21:50) *
.........I will email the council now and ask for photos. Question - should I start the letter to challenge the PCN and ask for the CEO's photos then or just email requesting the photos and wait for their reply, before beginning to contest (within the time frame of 14 days so I still have the benefit of the discount, although I am hopeful it will be cancelled anyway smile.gif )?


Personally I would ask for the photos and CEO notes with your challenge..... In the event that you reject, please include etc....

From what you say on the signs, as long as you leave within the hour (which you did), you can return and pay for another hour, didn't even need to park over the road.
Are the two tickets from differing machines by any chance?

hcandersen
If there aren't any photos then as per DD challenge on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

On *** I parked in a parking place outside Tower Leasing (or whatever, be specific) and bought and displayed a 1-hour ticket. At the expiry of that period I moved my car to a parking place on the opposite side of the road and bought and displayed another 1-hour ticket (from the m/c on that side of the road?), see enclosed. This expired at ****.

At *** a PCN was served alleging the contravention ******.

I am at a loss to understand why the PCN was served because the contravention does not allege that a ticket was not displayed( because this would be a different contravention), neither is there any restriction conveyed by the traffic signs on the period which must elapse before a motorist may re-park in the street, the restriction being only the maximum period of each period of parking.

The PCN has been issued in error and must be cancelled.

If the authority do not accept these grounds then I require them in their rejection to include all relevant CEO notes and photos which must include those of the traffic sign in the second parking place and, if the authority claim that the restriction in the first parking place in some way extends in time and scope to another period on the other side of the road, photos of the first sign. I would not require a copy of the traffic order at this stage because the issue is the restriction(s) conveyed by the signs.
Churchmouse
Apologies if this is obviously the wrong approach, but why mention the first period of parking at all? OP has received a PCN alleging that she had overstayed at 14:50 (with no observation period), but she can produce a parking ticket showing an expiration time of 15:03. The alleged contravention obviously did not occur.

--Churchmouse
DancingDad
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 15:23) *
Apologies if this is obviously the wrong approach, but why mention the first period of parking at all? OP has received a PCN alleging that she had overstayed at 14:50 (with no observation period), but she can produce a parking ticket showing an expiration time of 15:03. The alleged contravention obviously did not occur.

--Churchmouse


It's valid comment but....

Either way the thought is that the council will come back and say one of a couple of thngs.
One is that the CEO recorded the vehicle earlier and as such the P&D ticket was not valid
Or, hopefully, it was moved and returned within the prohibited return time.

I'd really like the second as it makes an easy win.
The first could end up with valve positions, OP's word against CEO and less certain.

So I would tell the full story up front and tempt them into a silly answer.
PASTMYBEST
They'll come back with amongst other things that it is a restricted parking zone, the signs are boll**ks anyway but...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Farm+Ya...486d06be9c41e20
hcandersen
But this doesn't bear on the alleged contravention either!
Churchmouse
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 17:38) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 15:23) *
Apologies if this is obviously the wrong approach, but why mention the first period of parking at all? OP has received a PCN alleging that she had overstayed at 14:50 (with no observation period), but she can produce a parking ticket showing an expiration time of 15:03. The alleged contravention obviously did not occur.

--Churchmouse


It's valid comment but....

Either way the thought is that the council will come back and say one of a couple of thngs.
One is that the CEO recorded the vehicle earlier and as such the P&D ticket was not valid
Or, hopefully, it was moved and returned within the prohibited return time.

I'd really like the second as it makes an easy win.
The first could end up with valve positions, OP's word against CEO and less certain.

So I would tell the full story up front and tempt them into a silly answer.

Thanks, I've subsequently read elsewhere that some councils use Code 30 for stays in excess of the "maximum stay" restriction (in this case, 1hr), and that they would use a different code for parking after expiry of a paid parking period (Code 5), so in this case they are likely acting on the basis that a vehicle parked on the opposite side of the same road is in the "same bay or zone" to which the 1hr restriction applies. Carry on; you're the experts!

(I will soon need to learn more about council-issued tickets as my council has now decided to include my road in a new CPZ, which will no doubt result in the usual heavy handed enforcement of minor contraventions mainly against local residents who didn't want the CPZ in the first place...)

--Churchmouse
Incandescent
It seems to me that this is a signage issue. Do the signs represent the TRO restriction correctly ? It has always been the case that each side of a road or street is separate for parking restrictions. Therefore it seems to me that there need to be zone signs at the entrances explaining the restriction. The OP says he was a bit "cheeky" in just moving his vehicle over to the other side of the street. I don't think this is the case at all, the other side is separate unless the council sign it as the 1 hour applies to both sides of the street.
Mad Mick V
Agreed,any appeal should concentrate on signage being deficient and the wrong contravention.

There is no mileage IMO in the parking place issue because the "parking place" is defined in the TRO as Farm Yard. So we cannot use something like this TPT case:-

TW05107
The TRO provided that a vehicle was not permitted to wait again in “that parking
place” within four hours of leaving it. This restriction applied to three separate
lengths of the same road. The appellant acknowledged that he parked, left and
returned to the road some 50 minutes later but said he parked in a different
place; therefore no contravention had occurred. The council argued that the
three lengths of road should be treated interchangeably, effectively as one;
therefore return to any of them within four hours amounted to a contravention.
Held: The adjudicator considered the definition of “parking place” in the TRO
and concluded that the three lengths of road were separate parking places.
Thus, the appellant had not contravened the TRO. The position would have
been different if he had returned to a different spot within the same parking place.
Appeal allowed

Mick
DancingDad
Maybe not but if the council does seek to rely on the TRO, they simply get stuffed on the signs.

Basically.
Parked, paid and stayed for an hour.
Removed vehicle, parked across road, paid again.
Got PCN. (I still want to know if it was a different ticket machine the second time)
So had parked with a valid P&D and no idea why PCN was served.
Please cancel.

Council reject with there is no return within one hour.
Lose as signs don't say that.

Council reject as TRO count all bays in the road as the same.
Lose as signs don't say that and do not impose a non return.
And even if left and returned into same bay, nothing against no return.
Mad Mick V
+1
sugardew
Hi again,

I have submitted my PCN challenge (thank you hcandersen for helping with the wording, much appreciated!).

Also to say that the 2 parking tickets I bought were from the same machine on Datchet Road (that was the closest one for either side of the road, hence why I bought them from that machine.)

Will report back when I hear of outcome.

Thank you all again!!
Mad Mick V
The OP really should take some current photos of the signs in question just in case this ends up at adjudication.

Mick
DancingDad
QUOTE (sugardew @ Sun, 13 Dec 2015 - 22:39) *
Hi again,

I have submitted my PCN challenge (thank you hcandersen for helping with the wording, much appreciated!).

Also to say that the 2 parking tickets I bought were from the same machine on Datchet Road (that was the closest one for either side of the road, hence why I bought them from that machine.)

Will report back when I hear of outcome.

Thank you all again!!


Just a note for future reference.
Normally, restrictions on one side of the road only apply to that side.
Same with parking bay restrictions
And with P&D machines.
If you cross over for a ticket, ensure the machine is valid for across the road.
Hopefully it is in this case else that could be why the PCN was served.
sugardew
Hi all,

finally an update on this whole story! It's gone a bit pear shaped in my opinion and to be honest, I'm feeling frustrated!

So, recap:
-Got the PCN as detailed previously above.
Replied on 13th December via email with pictures of my parking tickets and explanation.
-Never heard anything via email or post for sometime.
-Then, suddenly boom! My partner receives a NtO on 30/01/16 (he is the car's registered owner) requesting he pay the fine (undiscounted sum of £50 instead of £25). He is upset with me for not settling it :-/
Anyway, I email the council again same day stating I have yet to receive a rejection reply or any letter replying to my first email.
-called up parking services over the course of last 2 weeks - different people saying different things. I've been told that a rejection reply was definitely went by email on 4/1/16 and another said it was sent by post. Have checked all junk/spam/trash folders etc - nothing in my email. Definitely nothing in the post received either. They have told me I am not eligible for discounted sum anymore as NtO has been issued. I point out that I responded within stipulated time period and have still yet to receive any reasons as why I got ticket.

Finally, was advised to write another email stating I didn't receive the reply dated 4/1/16. When pressed on the contents of the rejection reply, they only said there is a picture of my car and a picture of the signage. Nothing else, and it's clear from pictures I am within time limits of my ticket and not expired. No CEO notes mentioned though.


What do I do next? So confused! And fed up!

Below are the emails I have sent so far:
FIRST EMAIL on 13/12/2015:
Dear Sir/Madam ,

I write with regards to challenging my PCN Xyzabc issued on 9/12/2015, my car registration is XYZABC.

On 9th December 2015, I parked in a parking place outside Tower Leasing Limited and bought and displayed a 1-hour ticket, expiring 13:58hours. At the expiry of that period, I moved my car to a parking place on the opposite side of the road (outside Lyndean House) and bought and displayed another 1-hour ticket, see enclosed. This expired at 15:03hours.

At 14:50hours, a PCN was served alleging the contravention no. 30 - parking for longer than permitted.

I am at a loss to understand why the PCN was served because the contravention does not allege that a ticket was not displayed
(because this would be a different contravention), neither is there any restriction conveyed by the traffic signs on the period which must elapse before a motorist may re-park in the street, the restriction being only the maximum period of each period of parking. There was no sign that stated "no return within x hours".

The PCN has been issued in error and must be cancelled.

If the authority do not accept these grounds then I require them in their rejection to include all relevant CEO notes and photos which must include those of the traffic sign in the second parking place and, if the authority claim that the restriction in the first parking place in some way extends in time and scope to another period on the other side of the road, photos of the first sign. I would not require a copy of the traffic order at this stage because the issue is the restriction(s) conveyed by the signs.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Regards,

SECOND EMAIL sent 30/1/2016:
Dear Parking RBWM,

I wrote to you on 13th of December 2015 with regards to my PCN Challenge XYZABC . I have not heard back since and today received a NtO for the same PCN. It did not explain the outcome of my PCN appeal/challenge.

Please would you respond with regards to my email as per 13th December whether the PCN could be cancelled (as per reasons of my email on 13/12/2015). I have also replied then with my appeal/challenge in the time frame of 14days to pay the discounted sum. Therefore, I believe the NtO was served in error as my appeal/challenge has not been replied to yet.

I hope to hear from you soon.

Regards
Incandescent
If you look carefully on the PCN, somewhere it will state that if you challenge the PCN, but a Notice to Owner is received before any response to the challenge has been received, you must follow the instructions on the NtO. So my question is - have you yet appealed the Notice to Owner ? You have 28 days from service to submit a formal appeal, so you need to do this now and don't miss the deadline. Your appeal will be the same as already made informally, plus details of the subsequent e-mail exchanges to make sure they realise you know about their tardiness and dissembling. They will, in all likelihood, reject your appeal, and then you should register an appeal at the adjudicators. They may re-offer the discount in which case you have to decide whether to pay-up or not. If they don't re-offer the discount, it is a no-brainer to take them all the way to TPT, (the adjudicators), as the amount to pay remains the same, there are no additional costs.
sugardew
Thank you for your reply! I didn't realise this. As you said, there is that statement on the PCN that I should follow the NtO's instructions. I will write the letter now and post by today. On the specified grounds - am I allowed to tick a few boxes? I plan to tick the following:
- alleged contravention did not take place (as per points in my first email)
-there has been a procedural impropriety by the authority. In my case, I would say that the Council did not send the rejection reply to me in a proper manner (neither by email or post) and this is supported by the customer service representatives who were giving conflicting information on the manner the reply was sent to me (some said email, another said post). (Don't know if the latter is applicable though?)

Also, NtO is in my partners name despite me responding and saying I was challenging PCN (we have different last names), does this have any bearing whatsoever?
sugardew
Here is my letter as below so far - if there's anything else i should add, please let me know. Thank you!

(I have also removed the names of the reps on the phones I spoke to - hence the qwerty.)

=========

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write with regards to challenging the NtO issued on ref:..... and, my car registration is ......

I received the PCN issued on 9/12/2015, and emailed my challenge response on 13/12/2015 (confirmed to be received as I received an acknowledgment reply via email the same day and also confirmed verbally over the phone by (qwerty), (qwerty2), (qwerty3) - customer service representatives for the Parking Dept of RBWM.) Please see attachments of emails.

My response included my reasons for the PCN to be cancelled and if the Council did not accept these grounds, I required them in their rejection to include all relevant CEO notes and photos which must include those of the traffic sign in the second parking place and, if the authority claim that the restriction in the first parking place in some way extends in time and scope to another period on the other side of the road, photos of the first sign. I would not require a copy of the traffic order at this stage because the issue is the restriction(s) conveyed by the signs. I would like to also point out that as I emailed back within the 14day stipulated time period, I was still eligible for the discounted parking sum of £25.00.

I never received a response to this email either by email or post. Instead, my husband received the Notice to Owner (NtO) on 30/01/2016 by post, to our surprise.

I immediately emailed a response on that same day stating I had yet to receive a response to the appeal and additionally, no CEO notes or photos had been provided in any rejection letter or email as per my request. I also mentioned that the NtO had been served in error and I was still entitled to the discounted parking fine, should I be required to pay it, as I had clearly responded within the required time frame. Please see attachment of emails and to note, I received an email confirmation acknowledging receipt plus verbal confirmation over the phone from (qwerty) & (qwerty2).

Since then, I have been in touch with (qwerty), (qwerty2) and (qwerty3) regarding this issue and have received conflicting information, which is frustrating. (qwerty) informed that the rejection reply was sent via email to me. I have checked spam/junk & trash folders & my entire inbox but have found no such email sent to me. (qwerty2) informed me that the rejection reply was posted on 4/1/2016. (qwerty3) informed me that she wasn't sure how the rejection reply on 4/1/2016 was sent as it had both my email and home address. Either way, I have not received this letter dated 4/1/2016 by email or post.

On the phone, (qwerty) informed me that if I had emailed the Parking Dept, I should expect to be emailed back by the Dept. Whereas, on the phone, (qwerty2) explained that the Parking Dept would always reply by post to any emails sent to them. Conflicting information from the Parking Department and thus, I have no idea what/whom to believe!

In my last telephone calls to (qwerty) & (qwerty2) (16/2/2015 and 17/2/2015 at approximately 9:15am), I voiced concern that I had yet to hear from the council regarding the outcome and that I was still eligible for the discounted parking sum. They both recommended I write again to the Parking Department explaining I had not received the rejection notice on the 4/1/2015 by email and/or post and to point out my rights for the the discounted parking fine as I had replied in the required time frame.

I would like to point out again that I believe the alleged contravention did not occur as I had parked in a parking space with a valid ticket clearly displayed outside Tower Leasing Limited, expiring 13:58hours. At the expiry of that period, I moved my car to a parking place on the opposite side of the road (outside Lyndean House), bought and displayed another valid and clearly displayed 1-hour ticket, see enclosed. This expired at 15:03hours. At 14:50hours, a PCN was served alleging the contravention no. 30 - parking for longer than permitted. I am at a loss to understand why the PCN was served because the contravention does not allege that a ticket was not displayed (because this would be a different contravention), neither is there any restriction conveyed by the traffic signs on the period which must elapse before a motorist may re-park in the street, the restriction being only the maximum period of each period of parking. There was no sign that stated "no return within x hours". The PCN has been issued in error and must be cancelled, as the alleged contravention did not take place. I would also like to formally request all relevant CEO notes and photos which must include those of the traffic sign in the second parking place and, if the authority claim that the restriction in the first parking place in some way extends in time and scope to another period on the other side of the road, photos of the first sign. I would not require a copy of the traffic order at this stage because the issue is the restriction(s) conveyed by the signs.

Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead have also not issued the rejection reply correctly to me as there has been conflicting opinions as to how the reply was sent. I have received nothing in way of rejection to my PCN challenge by email or post to date from RBWM. Hence, I believe that this reply was never actually sent to me. And instead a NtO was issued to my husband incorrectly (as he is the registered car owner) by post despite my emailed reply on 13/12/2015.

I hope to hear from you soon.








DancingDad
Rearrange it in terms of primary and secondary points.

And use headings as per the grounds on the NTO.....

ie, this para first
Contravention did Not Occur
I would like to point out again that I believe the alleged contravention did not occur .......... etc

Procedural Impropriety
I received the PCN issued on 9/12/2015, and emailed my challenge response on 13/12/201......... I received no response so cannot believe that it was considered as required by the regulations.

Procedural impropriety.
Despite being advised on the PCN that if I challenged within the stipulated 14 day period, the discount would be re-offered should the challenge be rejected, this has not happened......

etc etc....
hcandersen
OP, you can't write so don't. It's not your NTO, it's your partner's.

Their, not your, reps are as before plus - as you have not received a reply ( who cares whether they've sent it, it wasn't recieved) - that ' the penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case', the circumstances being that a challenge was submitted on *** within the 14-day discount period but no reply received and therefore the penalty remains at the discounted level. If the authority deny the last grounds, then they must include a copy of their response with any rejection.
sugardew
As I was trying to post my reply to the NtO, I found these pictures linked to the PCN. These were not made available previously to me so it's the first I have seen of it!













This last picture here is the one I took and submitted with my first email dated 13/12/2015.



And thank you to everyone above for giving me advice and feedback, here's hoping that this fine gets cancelled! Will post again soon an update.



Also to state that as i expected the CEO didnt take the pictures of my car in the first space or noted wheel markings either, neither is there a picture of the first parking sign!
hcandersen
Not that it makes any difference at this stage, but the contravention's b******s for another reason.

The only way in which their - flawed- logic would work is if Farm Yard was subject to a single restriction and therefore the location of the contravention could occur anywhere in Farm Yard, even if you'd moved.

But it isn't subject to a single restriction, there's at least a disabled parking bay. Therefore IMO, the only place in which your overstay could have occurred would have been at the location where the ticket was purchased and the car was initially. But it wasn't, they've tried to nail you elsewhere at a time when you weren't at the previous location because you'd moved and bought another ticket.

Their best case: you were in the same location as you originally parked. But you weren't and they would need to state this precise location - Farm Yard is not sufficient because the restrictions are not homogenous.


Your partner should play a straight bat and see it through.
sugardew
So my partner should sign this letter (ie. The one disputing the NtO)instead of me? The NtO was addressed to him - that is for sure. Would it be wrong if we jointly signed the letter at the bottom?

Whoops missed 2 more pics - here they are.





All from the second parking space though.

And yes, I definitely agree with your post, hcandersen. Thank you! Personally I think the council will fight back and it will end up at the adjudicators (that's my gut instinct) but hopefully overturned then at this point because if so many pepipoo forum users can see the truth, then the adjudicator should as well.
hcandersen
As the driver you have no legal status in this matter at all. The penalty is being demanded of the registered keeper, not you. There's no point in you signing the letter, other than to give moral support to your partner.

I'm certain you could find a far better way to do this. 😉
sugardew
Finally a reply from the Council.
They have cancelled the NtO and closed the case as they accept the representations by email. So pleased and relieved!

Huge huge thanks to HCA and all OP for their advice - would happily buy you all drinks if I could! smile.gif

Seriously though, how is the pepipoo forum funded? I would be grateful to contribute a small donation to the running of it if there was a way. You guys are excellent!!

Thanks again!

PS. While I am over the moon about this, my partner has just receive a speeding court summons (!), seems like we both haven't had a good start to the year, what with all this tickets/fines. I've told him to post here to get help. Though I'd say he probably will end up having to pay anyway, I'm guessing.
Incandescent
Look at this page

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36860

There is a "Donate" button at the bottom.
sugardew
Thanks, will do! smile.gif
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