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georgem103
I have been appealing a PCN I received in September. I have received a NtO, appealed it and have most recently the council's notice of rejection of representations but the reg number they provide on the rejection was wrong. I should be able to win the appeal on other points but I wondered if the reg number being wrong is grounds for dismissal by itself so I don't have to go to the bother of other defences.

All the other documents have the right reg number on them.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (georgem103 @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 14:29) *
I have been appealing a PCN I received in September. I have received a NtO, appealed it and have most recently the council's notice of rejection of representations but the reg number they provide on the rejection was wrong. I should be able to win the appeal on other points but I wondered if the reg number being wrong is grounds for dismissal by itself so I don't have to go to the bother of other defences.

All the other documents have the right reg number on them.


It could support an argument of failing to consider, but don't think it would be enough on it's own unless it was repeated in other documents
georgem103
I've just noticed that the PCN number in the information box for the tribunal is wrong as well. I don't know if that makes a difference. The document is really poorly done.
TheDisapprovingBrit
How wrong are we talking? "Typo" wrong or "somebody else's rejection" wrong?
Enceladus
Please confirm that an appeal form to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal or London Tribunals was enclosed with your NOR?
Check the pre-completed details in the EA (Enforcement Authority) section of the appeal form. Is the vehicle registration incorrect?
Likewise is the PCN number correct?

And are we talking about a significant difference as opposed to 0-v-O or 1-v-l?
georgem103
My reg number is missing a character and the PCN number has an additional character. Both these mistakes were in the box giving information about the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.



georgem103
Sorry if the images are blown up too much, I just wanted to make sure they were legible.
PASTMYBEST
Don't know if the number thing will help, it looks like it could have been mis-set it the printing.

What I cannot find however is http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/9/made 9(5)©
Enceladus
The PCN number begins with 2 alpha characters, followed by 7 numeric characters and finishes with an alpha numeric (0-9 or A). Makes 10 characters in total. So does you form have 11 characters for the PCN number?

NOR and appeal form both dated Monday the 9th Nov. So deemed served on Wednesday the 11th. The deadline to get an appeal registered is tomorrow Tuesday the 8th Dec.

Now strictly speaking you cannot register an appeal to the Adjudicator unless there is a NOR. It seems to me that an NOR that has the vehicle reg incorrect is arguably invalid. Also the regulations require that an NOR has to include details on how to appeal to the adjudicator to be valid. So an appeal form with incorrect details, which have been pre-completed by the Council, is arguably invalid and prejudicial and therefore no valid NOR has been served. I also note that the 56 days, that the Council had to serve a valid NOR, expired on Monday the 23rd Nov.

On balance I would be inclined to see if the on-line code works and submit an appeal on the basis of a procedural impropriety. If necessary you could put "Detailed submission to follow" in the details box, to buy some time to refine your case. Capture screen dumps of any failures / error messages. Or complete the form manually and fax. Most importantly please don't try to correct any of the Council's mistakes. Leave it to the Tribunal.
georgem103
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 15:58) *


Doesn't giving the website for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal count as giving the general means for appeal? If not should I apply for dismissal on procedural impropriety or should I just mention it with the rest of my appeal?
georgem103
Enceladus, it says on the the letter that the date of service was 12/11/2015. Is this another error by the council? Also I should be able to win the appeal on the grounds that the yellow lines were broken and didn't finish as they should, which I put in my appeal, that the council rejected the validity of in an email but totally ignored it in the NoR. Should I go ahead with my original defence or should I appeal on the grounds of procedural impropriety?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (georgem103 @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 16:23) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 15:58) *


Doesn't giving the website for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal count as giving the general means for appeal? If not should I apply for dismissal on procedural impropriety or should I just mention it with the rest of my appeal?



No the statute say's that it should be in the NOR This does not include telling you you can find it somewhere else IF you have access to the internet. It should be in the NOR it is not so a PI.

Do s E say's try to avoid a load of hassle if they say you did not appeal or pay, later it can be included as one of many points in error
Bagshot
QUOTE (georgem103 @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 16:23) *
Doesn't giving the website for the Traffic Penalty Tribunal count as giving the general means for appeal?

No, because it is those numbers in the box on the bottom of your NoR that you will need in order to register your appeal.

My bet is that it will work only if you use the numbers the council have given. Try it and see.
georgem103
It only works when I put in the right details, but I've screencapped the error messages when I put in the faulty info the council gave
Enceladus
QUOTE (georgem103 @ Mon, 7 Dec 2015 - 16:35) *
Enceladus, it says on the the letter that the date of service was 12/11/2015. Is this another error by the council? Also I should be able to win the appeal on the grounds that the yellow lines were broken and didn't finish as they should, which I put in my appeal, that the council rejected the validity of in an email but totally ignored it in the NoR. Should I go ahead with my original defence or should I appeal on the grounds of procedural impropriety?

Yes it is another error. The NOR was deemed served on you on the 2nd working day after it was posted. That is the start day for the 28 relevant period to either pay or lodge an appeal to the adjudicator. The legislation requires them to clearly state the law. To do otherwise is potentially prejudicial. EG if you were to count the 28 days from Thurs the 12th you might well conclude that the deadline to pay is Wed the 9th Dec. The fact that Leeds Council might use their discretion to accept such payment is neither here nor there. The law says you have until Tuesday the 8th. The 9th would be late in the eyes of the law. Likewise you might conclude that the deadline to register an appeal is Wed the 9th Dec, when in fact it is Tues the 8th. Now it might well be that TPT working practice is to accept such appeals but that is not something that falls under the council's discretion. The TPT could turn you down flat for being late.

The lines only have to be "substantially compliant". Missing termination marks on yellow lines cut no ice at all with the adjudicator unless there is some other factor to cause confusion or mislead. Likewise the paint has to be in really bad condition, to all intents and purposes invisible. A few breaks here and there carry no weight.

Please post up the text of all your representations that you sent to the council. And any replies from them that you have not yet posted.

Do you still have the envelope for the NOR? What date is the franking mark?

My advice is to get an appeal registered within the deadline. Put "Detailed submission to follow" in the box for now and send an update in plenty of time. You can always add to your appeal, if one is scheduled. Also ask for a telephone hearing or better yet a hearing in person. You can always change your mind.

And if the TPT bounce your appeal because of the detail errors this will stand you in good stead letter in the process. As things stand you potentially have somebody else's appeal form, how are you supposed to know?

And I reiterate, please don't attempt to overwrite or correct any of the Council's errors on the form or on the website. If it bounces, then let it bounce and screen dump/print everything.
georgem103
This is the original appeal I sent


And the response I received


I am only able to start to submit an appeal at all when I submit the right details. This is what the website throws back when I use the info the council gave


The franking mark had no date on it. I can also look through the deliveries I had to find the one I was on at the time but it's a pain because I don't know the exact time it was given and I can't find the ticket at the moment. Is there any way I can find this from the council or their website?
Enceladus
If an online submission to the TPT is not working then I suggest fax? Have you access to a fax machine or a computer with a modem? The priority is to get an appeal registered by tomorrow.

The time of contravention should be on the PCN?
Was this an on-street PCN followed by a Notice To Owner?
Or was this a postal PCN? CCTV?

Either way, please post up scans of the NTO or postal PCN. Redact your name & address, the PCN number and the vehicle reg.

And was this your bike (vehicle) or your employer's? IE are you the Registered Keeper?

PASTMYBEST
I would hazard a guess that it is a regulation 9 PCN affixed to the vehicle, it can't be CCV for parking. I note in the rejection of the informal challenge they state

If you are not able to provide the requested information then I regret that no further consideration can be given and I request payment.

Another statement that is contrary to the regulations. They must consider all representations made within the time scale, in the form of informal representations before the NTO another PI
georgem103
Just a quick update to say that my case wasn't contested by the council because of the registration number being wrong on the NoR. Worth noting if anyone else has similar circumstances in the future.
Bagshot
Well done.
hcandersen
Did the council state this as the reason? And even if they did, why should we believe them?

Councils often bluff to NOR only to throw in the towel when it comes to adjudication - you even mentioned in your first post that you thought you could win on other grounds.

Everybody has a monkey on their back, in the case of officers it's often finding a plausible reason to cancel in order to mask their incompetence. You gave them one with the reg no.

IMO, on its own this would not have won the day at adj and I will not be suggesting that other OPs risk the discount if only this is in play as a defence.

But that's for other people's cases, as for yours you won and that's what counts.

Enceladus
QUOTE (georgem103 @ Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 10:18) *
Just a quick update to say that my case wasn't contested by the council because of the registration number being wrong on the NoR. Worth noting if anyone else has similar circumstances in the future.

That was quick. Do you have it in writing?
Anyway well done!
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