Hello everyone,

I received a Parking Charge Notice from Civil Enforcement Ltd for £60 for early payment and £100 for late payment. I was going to ignore but now think I should appeal. I've read on other threads that fighting them should be easy, but I know someone who appealed in a similar circumstance and their appeal was rejected.

I was 20mins over the 3hr free parking, but it was for a sports centre (who have put this enforcement in to deter commuters from using it) and I have since found out that if I'd put my registration number behind the desk then I would never have got the invoice. I didn't know I'd gone over the 3hrs as I was with my kids swimming and it was a genuine mistake. Will they take this as an argument or is it not worth the hassle?

I have read up on contract law and though they have my husband's name who is the registered keeper, they can legally ask him to pay if he refuses to give the name of the named driver, because of this we have now emailed to give my name and ask them to reissue the PCN to give us more time to put an appeal together (I realise from reading other threads on here now that this may have been a mistake, but it is done now, though we have yet to hear back from them.) Also, the argument about it being too much seems unlikely to win given the recent Supreme Court verdict.

What do the experts on here feel?

I've just found this too: "Parking Fine Notices are issued by private companies, while Parking Charge Notifications are issued by councils (these are fines)" so does that mean I should pay because it could affect my credit rating? The car park is owned by the leisure centre and council.

Correct. That's the WORST thing you could have done. CEL's notices fail to be conformant to POFA, so without the driver's name, they'd have been sunk. Why oh why do people react so quickly rather than using the 28 days allowed to research things?

Your best approach is to contact the sports centre, and get them to have the ticket cancelled. Don't be fobbed off by any nonsense about it being nothing to do with them or out of their hands. They contracted CEL (more fool them, if only they knew what a bunch of lying, cheating rogues they are), so they CAN do something about it. Be sure to talk to the manager, not some spotty kid on reception. Don't let go until you get something IN WRITING.


How do you think that's going to happen? You need to do rather more reading to understand that there are an awful lot of steps before anything like that could happen, and CEL are not very good at it.

As I already said, STOP and research before doing anything (else) rash.

Thank you for your quick advice. I have now emailed the sports centre and will await a response.

Credit rating is affect ed if:
They take you to court
you lose
you refuse to pay within 28 days

CEL are utterly incompetent, so if you do appeal you will get a rejection, however when appealing ask for Alternative Dispute Reoslution that meets Schedule 3 of "The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015 "

Hold off until you hear from the leisure centre.

DO NOT accept "no" for an answer.

So the Sports centre email is as follows:

"Thank you for your email and I am sorry to hear that you have received a parking fine.

It is not our intention to penalise genuine users of the centre. The system has been in place since 2011 and was brought in to ensure our customers can park easily in the car park. We aim to inform members of the parking restrictions in place via the signs in the car park, around the centre, on the website and Swimming Lesson newsletters. The signs in the centre do explain the vehicle registration recording system so I am sorry if you have not noticed these. If we are made aware of your vehicle registration within 24 hours of you parking, we can log a day permit, but once this period has passed, there is no way we can prevent a fine being sent.

It is an automated number plate recognition system and the system cannot distinguish who are genuine customers and who are not. Fines are automatically sent out to any vehicle owners who overstay the advertised 3 hour limit.

If you have not already appealed your parking fine with the company, please do so. I am happy to write to the company to support your appeal by confirming that you were genuinely using the centre at the time

Please can you provide me with the names of your children and the date & time of the incident so that I can do this?"

How should I proceed?

At this point we have still only received a PCN in my husband's name and no acknowledgment that they have received the email naming me as driver that he sent 2 days ago.

Write appealing as a genuine customer.......

You have a choice at this stage whether to thrown the kitchen sink at it, (standing, signage (not being aware of how to extend the time) and unconscionable under the circumstances) or whether to come across all innocent and save them for POPLA. Personally I think id add in that the signage was inadequate to inform you how to extend the time for genuine customers.

Challenge them on this:

Tell them that THEY are the principal, CEL are merely their agent, so they CAN get the charge (it's not a fine) cancelled. And if they (the leisure centre) have signed a contract with CEL with such a time limit on getting the charge cancelled (more likely they have to pay CEL), then that's their problem in signing up to such a one-sided contract, and not yours. Go in hard with them, make THEM send in the appeal on your behalf if they are so wedded to it, else you will be billing THEM for your time and effort. Sometimes these people need a slap round the face to make them understand who they've got into bed with.

Ok so Rookie you're talking about appealing to CEL now and using supporting letter from sports centre? I will write that I didn't know - as I really didn't! and that the signage is definitely unclear - something I will point out to the staff of the centre also.

But do I now wait to see if they put PCN in my name or see if they are only acknowledging my husband?

nosferatu1001 what will this do? "Alternative Dispute Reoslution that meets Schedule 3 of "however when appealing ask for The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015 ""

Thanks again for everyone's help in this and apologies for my naivety!

ADR is something you do as an Alternative to court.

The regulations put in place standards for a fair ADR service

While POPLA is pretty good, as it changed hands recently its good adding that in in case the new POPLA organisation arent fantastic.

OK this is the email I'm thinking of now sending to the leisure centre:

"Thank you for your quick response. I however, do not accept that you cannot now do anything with regards to getting the parking company to withdraw the invoice because you (the leisure centre) are the principal, CEL are merely your agent, so you CAN get the charge (it's not a fine) cancelled. If you (the leisure centre) have signed a contract with CEL with such a time limit on getting the charge cancelled, then it seems you have signed up to a very one-sided contract with a very ruthless firm and it is penalising your leisure centre users as a result. Because of their tactics the 2 other mums I told you about were forced to pay despite appealing! If you really are saying that you cannot withdraw the invoice at this point, then I would ask you to appeal on my behalf.

The signage is obviously not very clear because I have been to the leisure centre 3 times since the first visit and still have not seen them, which is what prompted me to write and ask.

My son’s name is Callum Hawkings and his swim lesson is with Louise on a Monday at 12pm. The day in question is the 12th October and they have recorded that I was there between 11.37 and 14.56."

I do not, at this point, feel I should become too aggressive as she is being co-operative and may want to genuinely help. Plus, I haven't got a letter from her to back my claim as yet and don't want it all to get nasty and her refuse to do so. Does it sound ok?

I'm just wondering, as the PCN is still in my husband's name and we've no acknowledgment that they've received my details, should my husband just appeal against the invoice in the first instance, with the appeal being he was not the driver? Or should we wait a bit longer to see if they send a new one in my name?

DO they claim that the keeper is liable in the notice?

The notice is addressed to him. In the small print at the bottom it says if the keeper was not the driver then to inform them. I have read elsewhere that the keeper is liable for the invoice if they do not provide the driver's name (this seems to be the law?!)

Any more advice on this thread before I proceed?

Shall I keep tackling Sports Centre? Get my husband to appeal PCN as it's still in his name and just say he wasn't the driver? Or me appeal PCN saying I was genuine customer using Sports Centre as back up?

Which is most likely to get the invoice dropped the quickest in your experience?

Thanks

The keeper can be held liable if certain conditions are met. The Notice To Keeper that your husband received has to comply with the requirments of POFA otherwise they don't have a valid claim. Not being the driver isn't good enough unfotunately.

Quickest is to get the gym to cancel, and get it in writing from them when they do. A personal visit would probably be best.

For the moment don't tell them who was driving as it's easier to beat wth your husband as keeper. The driver can be named later if it becomes necessary.

Can you post up the NTK that was received with personal details redacted.

Edit: sorry didn't see you have outed the driver. The driver should receive their very own PCN.

(I like my tablet but sometimes it's awkward!)

How long should it take to get a new PCN for me? As we didn't use the proper channels to give this info (i.e. we used an email address we found on their website which is used for other purposes) is it possible that they have ignored or not seen the driver details? I am aware that the we are now into the 3rd week of the time that we can appeal to the original PCN. Should my husband write and appeal that he was not the driver whilst I'm tackling the sport's centre? Doesn't he have to give the driver's name otherwise he'll be liable for the charge?

Sorry for all the ongoing questions! I just want to get this clear in my head before I proceed.

I have just emailed the sports centre with a reply:

"Thank you for your quick response. I however, do not accept that you cannot now do anything with regards to getting the parking company to withdraw the invoice because you (the leisure centre) are the principal, CEL are merely your agent, so you CAN get the charge (it's not a fine) cancelled. If you (the leisure centre) have signed a contract with CEL with such a time limit on getting the charge cancelled, then it seems you have signed up to a very one-sided contract with a very ruthless firm and it is penalising your leisure centre users as a result, but I’m sure there is still a way for you to get it dropped.

As it is not your intention for genuine users to get parking fines then I would like you to do one of the following:
Cancel the charge by contacting Civil Enforcement Ltd and telling them to do so
Appeal on my behalf – I know at least one other customer who appealed as a genuine sports centre user and still lost and had to pay!
If you do not have the authority to do either of these please escalate to someone who is and copy me in so I know what is going on. I spend a fair amount of money with you for swim lessons and regular swimming and I am very unhappy that this is the way I am being treated as a customer.

I am definitely not the first to be hit by a fine for genuine sports centre use and I’m sure I will not be the last, though I may well be the first to complain directly to you as I now know of at least 2 customers who have been intimidated into paying the very unfair charge. It would not be too hard to find other disgruntled customers I’m sure.

The signage is obviously not very clear because I have been to the leisure centre 3 times since the first visit and still have not seen them. I have checked on the website and there is nothing that says about how leisure centre users can stay over the 3 hours and I have yet to receive a Swim Lesson News Letter. It should be made VERY clear to customers that it is not the Leisure Centre’s intention to discourage genuine users. Had I known the procedure in the first place, of course I would have used it and saved myself all this time, energy, not to mention stress that this is causing myself and my family. The signs are totally inadequate and the charge totally unfair.

My son’s name is ****** and his swim lesson is with **** on a **** at ****. The day in question is the 12th October and CEL have recorded that I was there between 11.37 and 14.56.

I thank you for your help in this matter and trust that it will be cleared up quickly."

I will await their reply.

The sports centre have replied:

"Thank you for providing the information.

Unfortunately, we are unable to appeal on your behalf as it need to be done by the registered car owner so you will need to do this if you haven’t done so already.

With the information you have provided and using your PCN as a reference, I am able to write to the company in support of your appeal, which I will do today.

The 3 hour limit is clearly advertised but we do understand that members may occasionally overstay this limit whilst using the facilities. Along with the system we have in place for recording member vehicle registrations on the day, if we are made aware of any members receiving a parking charge, we are very happy to support their appeal. When we have done this previously, the charge has been successfully overturned.

I do apologise that this has led to any distress and we will of course look into how we can make our members more aware of the vehicle registration recording system that we have in place."

I know I could keep pushing back with this, but she says that with her support the charge will be dropped so I have written back to her and given the PCN and said that I am trusting her word and that if it is not dropped then I may have to take things further. I will now appeal as a genuine user and lack of signage and with the sports centre's help will hopefully have all of this sorted soon! I will report back.

All charges dropped by the sports centre! I didn't send an appeal letter in the end and waited to see if they were lying about not being able to appeal on my behalf, and what do you know, they were!

Copy of the email:

"Good afternoon

Thank you for your patience.

I have chased the car park company and I can confirm that your parking charge has now been cancelled. You will not be sent anything confirming this from the car park company so please take this email as confirmation of the cancellation

I apologise for any distress this has caused you and hope you will be able to continue to use our car park without any further issues.

Best wishes"