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ntown
A PCN came through last week for a contravention on 31st May. 31st May ! That was so long ago I don't even remember what I was doing. Was most likely picking a friend up from the street or maybe heard something, thought there was something wrong with the car and pulled over briefly.

The photos they've provided only span a timeframe of about 8 seconds! (NB contravention time is a minute later 22:07 but honestly I could not say with any degree of confidence how long I was there for but I don't make a habit of stopping on red routes...)

Signage must be the same as this one, red route no stopping at any time except loading max 20 mins (his is opp side of the road)

Do I have any case to fight ? Can i request any other photos to see if I'm only there for the 8 seconds or would that be futile either way?

Many thanks





Incandescent
This has been served way out of the time allowed, (28 days), but this does depend on who the keeper was at the time of the contravention. Was this a hired car ? If not were your details up-to-date on the V5 ?

Either of these two gives them an excuse to issue a PCN way after the date the alleged contravention took place.
ntown
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 21 Oct 2015 - 10:27) *
This has been served way out of the time allowed, (28 days), but this does depend on who the keeper was at the time of the contravention. Was this a hired car ? If not were your details up-to-date on the V5 ?

Either of these two gives them an excuse to issue a PCN way after the date the alleged contravention took place.


Hey thanks for the quick reply. I was the owner of the vehicle but moved house around that time. I sent off a new v5c for the address change on 22 May 2015 (Kensington & Chelsea council actually sent it for me and I have a copy with a stamp with the date). The new V5C has a date of 9th June 2015 next to the Doc Ref No.

Hopeless case then?
Incandescent
QUOTE
Hopeless case then?

Not necessarily. Did you have mail re-direction in place after you moved ?

I think the best approach is to submit an appeal on the basis that the PCN has been served out-of-time and see what they say about it. They have to justify their late service of the PCN.
ntown
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 21 Oct 2015 - 19:13) *
Not necessarily. Did you have mail re-direction in place after you moved ?

I think the best approach is to submit an appeal on the basis that the PCN has been served out-of-time and see what they say about it. They have to justify their late service of the PCN.


I had no mail re-direction unfortunately.

Do you recommend I send the letter back ticking the box on page 3 "There has been a procedural impropriety* on the part of the enforcement authority"? (note the asterisk refers to Traffic Management Act 2004). Could you point me in the right direction on what I would I write on page 4 under "Details of your representation" ?

Incandescent
Yes tick the Procedural Impropriety box, as issuing a PCN out-of-time is such. They then have to justify their late issue, and we'll get a bit further into why the delay, as it seems they eventually found your correct address to send a PCN to. If this meant they had to cancel the original PCN and issue another, they have 28 days to issue a new one from the date they are informed of the new address.
kernow2015
Was this where you were stopped? GSV
hcandersen
OP, the first action is to contact TfL as per How to View Contravention Footage or View Images on page 2 of the PCN.

Ask for still images. This holds the enforcement process. We can then make use of this additional time to look at the specifics.

To make reps now would be premature.
ntown
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 22 Oct 2015 - 08:28) *
OP, the first action is to contact TfL as per How to View Contravention Footage or View Images on page 2 of the PCN.

Ask for still images. This holds the enforcement process. We can then make use of this additional time to look at the specifics.

To make reps now would be premature.


yikes I had already sealed the PCN with rep but it's ok I haven't sent it yet.

It's not very clear how you're meant to request the images. Shall I call the general enquiries number or send a letter?

QUOTE (kernow2015 @ Thu, 22 Oct 2015 - 07:03) *
Was this where you were stopped? GSV


no a bit further back - here
John U.K.
QUOTE
yikes I had already sealed the PCN with rep but it's ok I haven't sent it yet.


When you do send it, ensure you have kept a copy of the form and reps. Do NOT send back the original pages 1 & 2 of the PCN.
ntown
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 22 Oct 2015 - 17:19) *
QUOTE
yikes I had already sealed the PCN with rep but it's ok I haven't sent it yet.


When you do send it, ensure you have kept a copy of the form and reps. Do NOT send back the original pages 1 & 2 of the PCN.


ok noted thanks.
hcandersen
Call the number and ask.
ntown
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 22 Oct 2015 - 21:21) *
Call the number and ask.


Done - they will be sending them in the post and that's bought us 15 days longer for the reduced period.

I have to say the lady on the phone was not convincing though - initially she told me the still images referred to are already on the notice to owner until I argued for a while, she put me on hold then finally processed the request.
hcandersen
Well done.

And you've shown stickability which is likely to come in hand as we progress.

As regards TfL's response, do not be fooled.

The photos in the PCN are not mandatory but should contain sufficient evidence that the contravention has been committed.

Whereas the stills are mandatory:

The recipient of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a) of the General Regulations may, by notice in writing to the enforcement authority, request it—

(b)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

In other words, what you receive must be their best evidence and not just photos.

We'll pore over them once they arrive, but for now we can see whether we need other info to fill out the circumstances.
ntown
Great - thank you for your help hcandersen. Now we play the waiting game!
ntown
I have yet to receive a reply from TFL on this. I'm moving out of my current apartment this weekend and I'm going to set up mail forwarding with Royal Mail for a month or so. Still, I'm a little bit worried that I've not heard back.

Should I confirm they are not pursuing it further for a piece of mind or is that a bad idea?
DancingDad
What web status on the PCN ?

If still live, write to them (or email)
Dear Sirs
REf PCN ???
Please be advised and update your records that as of ?? my new postal address will be...
Ntown
???? Street
ETc ETc
Hugs and kisses

Update V5 on your motor with dvla immediately (and driving licence)

Consider longer on mail forwarding, not sure what cost but I'd have thought couple of months at least

You can phone TFL but anything not written down will be worthless if it all goes pear shaped.
ntown
Thanks DancingDad. The web form shows "Current status: PCN Issued" and "Amount due: £130.00".

I'll call them tomorrow morning for an email address/postal address. I'll send off the V5C and License tomorrow too.

I've set up mail forwarding for 3 months (which is the minimum anyway for Royal Mail).
ntown
I just spoke to them on the phone and they claim to have sent the images on 3/11/2015. I have not received anything (sigh), I told them this and they asked me for the new address stating it would take 10 working days to get a new copy of the photos sent there. I am going to write to the Darlington address and send it recorded delivery to make sure there is a track record as you suggested.
astralite
It seems to me that delays in a) the issue of the PCN and b) the provision of evidence of an alleged contravention in May 2015 are beyond the pale.

Please confirm that you have received nothing from them other than the PCN.

Make sure you make a note now of your earlier telephone conversation.

In your letter request the video evidence on DVD as well as stating that you are making a renewed request for photographic evidence originally made on [October DATE] which has yet to be received.

In your letter ask them to supply the video DVD free of charge. Tell them that on 10 June 214 TfL gave an undertaking to the tribunal adjudicators in London that such evidence would be supplied free of charge - as it should be.

Keep a copy of everything as well as getting proof of posting etc.
ntown
I can confirm I've received nothing else. About to send the letter now. It includes your tips. Thanks!
ntown
Update: I got a letter from red routes saying they've received my letter, will reply in full shortly and will put the penalty on hold in the meantime. This was on 12 January. I have had nothing since.
ntown
Hi guys,

This is TFL's response. It says DVD evidence enclosed but there was nothing enclosed.

Click to view attachment

No other details on the process from here which I find a little bit ridiculous.
What's the best course of action?

Thanks
ntown
Hey guys I am completely lost. Does anyone have any ideas on what to do next? The whole thing is a mess. TFL are so incompetent it really winds me up sad.gif
DancingDad
Dear Sirs
REf PCN ???? and your letter dated ????
The letter purported to include a copy of the video being used in evidence against the above PCN.
However no DVD was included.
Please re send and please confirm that you will continue to keep the case on hold while you do so.
Without viewing the video I cannot properly consider the alleged contravention.
As there has been considerable delay and errors, I also ask that you consider discretion and cancel the PCN should you be unable to send the video.
Hugs and kisses.

No drama, should have been sent by return.
The final line is only to protect should they do something daft like send a Charge Certificate.
ntown
Thank you !
ntown
Hi all. They've sent the DVD recorded delivery dated 24 March 2016. The DVD shows me stopped here for 2 minutes and then a friend gets in the car from the roadside.

A little bit surprised that the box is not painted red and I guess that's why I stopped there.

Can I still fightback on the basis of a procedural impropriety because my V5C was up to date on the 9th June but it took them four months to send me the PCN?
ntown
bump. Any ideas?
Mad Mick V
The Council's letter is not a response to representations but a request for the video.

Did you send substantive reps e.g. the PCN was served out of time or not? If so when?

Don't they have 56 days to respond to substantive representations? It is the TMA.

Mick
ntown
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 14:07) *
The Council's letter is not a response to representations but a request for the video.

Did you send substantive reps e.g. the PCN was served out of time or not? If so when?

Don't they have 56 days to respond to substantive representations? It is the TMA.

Mick



Hi Mick,

I have not sent any reps yet.

I meant to ask if I should do so now and what I should write (earlier posters said they needed time to look at the specifics, and the request for video evidence was to buy time).
ntown
I tried to check the cost using this but I got "Invalid Vehicle Registration Mark for Penalty Charge number entered".

In limbo here guys as to how much this will now cost if I have to pay and how now to respond to the PCN.
DancingDad
Is the registration on the PCN yours ?
Are you entering it properly ? (sorry, got to ask)

Assuming yes, phone TFL and check if system working.
We know it doesn't for online reps, not sure on the payment system.
ntown
Yes I entered it correctly. I am trying to seek advice on how to respond to the original PCN now that I have received the video evidence namely what I should write on the details of my representation for a procedural impropriety. So far I have

"I believe there has been a procedural impropriety as the date of this notice is more than 28 days after the alleged contravention date"
ntown
bump in case anyone has anything to add otherwise I'm sending it off as is first thing tomorrow
ntown
Ladies and gentleman. After writing up a timeline, I concede defeat.

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