Hi all,

I have a problem with a London council (WM). Short story - can I invoice them for the time I have wasted dealing with their incompetent employees? I'm out for revenge. What is the most burdensome thing I can do them?

Their system stopped recognising my motorbike so it would not let me park in a motorcycle bay saying the vehicle type is not permitted.

I've spoken to their call centre and made them aware of this several months ago.

I was there again yesterday and show the parking warden that it is still not working. He says he will ticket me anyway if I park there.

So I call their call centre and explain the problem again. They have me on hold for 10 minutes. By this point I have somewhere to be so I have to go off the phone.

I come back to a ticketed bike. I call them and they can't do anything about the PCN so I have to waste more time contesting it.

They have wasted so much of my time I would feel unjust if I couldn't repay the favour. What can I do?

Before we get involved in any vendetta, could we see the PCN and a better explanation of the problem.

Normally motorbikes are recognised as motorbikes without any computer system so I assume that something like a missing permit or the like is involved ??

Blank personal details, leave in dates, times and location.
A streetview link to the bay in question would be useful as well.

Perhaps a trike?

Anyway please proceed in the tried and tested manner. Please post up scrubbed scans of both sides of all pages of the PCN. Complete pages only please. And please check for evidence photos available from the council website, might take a few days for them to appear. If there are any then please down load and post them up here. If current, a Google Street View link would help.

Scrubbed = obscure or redact your name & address if applicable, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave everything else visible especially all time, date, location and council info.

Photos are fine if you have no scanner. Please make sure the images are flat and well lit. Use close-up / macro mode if available. Try and have the images the right way up, some of the members won't even try and read them if they are sideways. Don't try and re-size the images, let the forum software handle that.

Some judiciously cut up pieces of paper, eg post-it note, are good for obscuring. Please leave visible all time, date, location and council/enforcement authority info.

Please open a free of charge basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com or dropbox.com or similar. I use tinypic without complaint. There are numerous others. Log in and upload your scans, photos etc. Copy and paste the provided IMG links into your posts on here. Et voilà!

3 things. Challenge the PCN as far as you feel appropriate. Submit a formal complaint and pursue it until you feel satisfied. Submit a substantial (pertinent and non frivolent) Freedom of Information (FoI) request. An FOI request is usually free so long as it does not exceed £600 in costs to the council to answer. I know some people that submit an FOI with every PCN challenge and each time the challenge is accepted. This is probably because the parking dept would rather cancel a PCN at discount rate rather than spend £600 of time (that's a lot of hours) and materials in order to pursue a discounted penalty of £60 or so pounds.

Thanks DancingDad, Enceladus and Bogsy.

I don't need help fighting the PCN. I am 100% in the right and they are 100% in the wrong and it should be an easy one.

I just want to cause as much stress/hassle/expense to them as they have to me.

A "formal complaint" will only go to their parking office based outside London.

What would you suggest making the FoI about?

If we had a fw details we could perhaps sort something specific.
Formal complaints do not get sent to parking.
Google the council and find out who runs it, the head of council. Send the complaint to them. Copy to head of traffic/roads/transport...or vice versa, show both names on the letter/email. Keep a copy.
If you live in the area, put the complaint direct to your local councillor (google is your friend to find out who) but with copies as above.
Complaint should be short, to the point and include what you need to happen and what you want to happen.
IE, despite many telephone conversations, my bike is being shown as an articulated lorry on the permit database.
This means I cannot access parking facilities without getting a PCN (please note there is one ref ????? in the system at the moment)
As it seems impossible to correct the error over the phone, would you contact the relevant head of department and ask them to sort it out.
This has been ongoing for ?? Months and is a severe inconvenience.
Compensation would be in order for my wasted time in contesting PCNs etc etc.

Bit short on facts methinks.

So before you go off firing left, right and centre, possibly with blanks, how about a few facts.

Your vehicle; a PCN; photos of the location and restriction on traffic sign would be a start.

If the complaint is parking related then it will. Generally a formal complaints team just receives and registers the complaint and then send it to the department concerned. Most councils have a 3 stage complaint process. The 1st is to a lower level manager such as a team leader and then to his/her line manager and 3rd usually goes to a head of department. Usually before the lower manager replies he/she runs it past the line manager and department manager so that they can all sing from the same hymn sheet. Once all are in agreement the lower manager replies and the stance taken is usually followed at the other 2 levels although slight and not very significant concessions are usually given to make it look like the complaint has been given a fresh outlook at each stage. This tactic usually works to avoid the matter going to the Ombudsman. During my local authority experience I've often seen all 3 stages responded to by the Team Leader but signed off by the next manager in line. Managers hate complaints and FOI's as they take up so much time. It is also very rare that a manager will ever concede that his/her staff cocked up. It makes them look bad.

Go through the formal complaint trail (stage 1, 2 and 3), you make a formal complaint at stage 1, if they say they've sorted it and you get another PCN you go to tewo and so on, then to the LGO, the LGO are able to order compensation paid, so start tracking costs and time of every call, every PCN appeal etc on a spreadsheet.

Can we have some facts please.

And the 3rd stage is directed by the Chief Exec in my experience (done many) and given to a senior officer in another unrelated department. Don't buy the all pals together routine, complaints have to be investigated thoroughly and the reviewing officer can call on the services of the council's Legal Services to identify the law as it applies or even seek external help.

But on the basis of the facts, you haven't got a complaint because we don't have reviewable facts.

Keep the top on your pen for now.

Are you saying that the automated phone system would not allow you to park your vehicle in bay 6789?

I've seen this happen to a friend too.

The pay-by-phone parking system (this in Westminster too) does not recognise the vehicle registration as a motorbike and therefore will not allow you to register to park in their free-for-motorbikes parking spots.

It's the same as buying a ticket via pay-by-phone accept that there is no fee to pay.

In the exact same way, the system was telling my friend that his motorbike was not a motorbike but an HGV and therefore wasn't allowed to park at the location (and hence you can't continue with the process). He tried to speak to someone but there was no obvious way to contact a human being.

@hcanderson : the facts have been stated already for the question asked. I'm not entirely sure what other facts you want as this thread is not about fighting a PCN. The OP has stated that this has happened many times before and that the PCNs always get cancelled after appeal, yet it keeps happening and the situation never corrected - hence the waste of his time.

Eventually it will but perhaps I should have said don't send it direct to parking.

For some reason, complaints made directly to the people "at fault" often fall on deaf ears.
If they come to them from their boss, his boss, a councillor or a "customer service" department, it is more likely to be actioned.
Hence I never complain about a department's lack of action to that department, not even the head if I can help it.
My preference is to the top.

@Nat8088

Speaking for myself, I'd prefer better info then we have.
At the moment it is guesswork.
Specifics may well generate a specific answer.
Which is often better then a generic.

It is a guess that the problem is the motorbike not being recognised by a Pay by Phone automated system.
It is unknown whether this is a council problem or perhaps one with DVLA information. Or with the PBP database.
Yes the council is responsible but finding the right way to approach (and who) and working with may return better results then slagging them off.

As for a waste of time. If the OP knows that his bike has not been registered and parks without the required permit anyway, who is at fault when a PCN gets served ??

You are referring to a parking place with a traffic sign which conveys a restriction which applies to 'motorcycles'?

If the prescribed sign is used then the legal definition of motorcycle applies.

As I understand it, the definition is consistent between the RTA and taxation law.

So, we have you with a V5C which states that the specified VRM is a ***** and a traffic sign which states that the parking of 'motorcycles' is permitted subject to what exactly? But you are being prevented from registering your VRM with the authority's specified system because it will not accept the VRM/accepts it as valid but won't register as a 'motorcycle'? The PBP will use a database, but whose? One created by the authority and populated by motorists who are required to register their vehicles in advance or a third party database? I don't know, do you? If a third party, is it DVLA or MID or what?

I'm simply trying to establish where the error lies.

Thanks for all the responses and in particular to Bogsy and DancingDad. I feel I have provided enough information and have received some very helpful responses that answered my question.

By way of update I have sent a letter to the council's CEO similar to the template suggested by DancingDad.

The problem seems to lie with RingGo who subsequently suggested it has been fixed but I do not know for sure if it has.