Hi all, new to the forum and thought I'd ask your advice.
Received a PCN on 29/8 for driving in a bus lane in Leeds (Boar Lane). Not sure if there's anything I can do about it. I really don't remember even doing it but I clearly did, and obviously it wasn't intentional. I don't see how they think a fine will deter me from doing it again as clearly they either need better signage or I'm in need of some education! It was my first proper drive out (not from the area) since being off work with depression though so perhaps I wasn't as focused as I'd normally be. I did find the lanes around Leeds very confusing though.
Attaching scans of the letter they've sent.
Would appreciate any advice.
Full Version: Bus Lane PCN - Leeds
Is this the place?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7964323,-...3312!8i6656
First thing ,is to get the video, see what it show's. There may be a case for inadequate signs and markings. I think it is a bus lane but signed (inadequately) as a bus gate
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.7964323,-...3312!8i6656
First thing ,is to get the video, see what it show's. There may be a case for inadequate signs and markings. I think it is a bus lane but signed (inadequately) as a bus gate
Just had the video footage, I've upload it unlisted to YouTube. Here it is: https://youtu.be/qmB_KiuZPwg
Also, might be worth noting that in the letter they sent with it they also said that on this occasion they're willing to accept £30 as long as it's within 14 days of the date on the letter.. (original 14 days ran out on Friday). I think that's interesting as my letter to them only said "this is a formal request to view the CCTV footage from the incident" and I didn't complain or even object or anything. Why would they still offer the lower amount if they think they can get the full amount out of me?
Also, might be worth noting that in the letter they sent with it they also said that on this occasion they're willing to accept £30 as long as it's within 14 days of the date on the letter.. (original 14 days ran out on Friday). I think that's interesting as my letter to them only said "this is a formal request to view the CCTV footage from the incident" and I didn't complain or even object or anything. Why would they still offer the lower amount if they think they can get the full amount out of me?
You're past the discount period.
You were going to request to view the video soon after receiving the PCN. Did you, when did you receive it and did the authority extend the discount? If so, to when? There are tight deadlines here.
You were going to request to view the video soon after receiving the PCN. Did you, when did you receive it and did the authority extend the discount? If so, to when? There are tight deadlines here.
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 14:04) 
Just had the video footage, I've upload it unlisted to YouTube. Here it is: https://youtu.be/qmB_KiuZPwg
Also, might be worth noting that in the letter they sent with it they also said that on this occasion they're willing to accept £30 as long as it's within 14 days of the date on the letter.. (original 14 days ran out on Friday). I think that's interesting as my letter to them only said "this is a formal request to view the CCTV footage from the incident" and I didn't complain or even object or anything. Why would they still offer the lower amount if they think they can get the full amount out of me?
Also, might be worth noting that in the letter they sent with it they also said that on this occasion they're willing to accept £30 as long as it's within 14 days of the date on the letter.. (original 14 days ran out on Friday). I think that's interesting as my letter to them only said "this is a formal request to view the CCTV footage from the incident" and I didn't complain or even object or anything. Why would they still offer the lower amount if they think they can get the full amount out of me?
Post up the letter they sent with the video
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 14:12)
You're past the discount period.
You were going to request to view the video soon after receiving the PCN. Did you, when did you receive it and did the authority extend the discount? If so, to when? There are tight deadlines here.
You were going to request to view the video soon after receiving the PCN. Did you, when did you receive it and did the authority extend the discount? If so, to when? There are tight deadlines here.
Wrote a letter to them a few days after I received the letter (same date I posted the thread), sent 1st class. Received the video and uploaded to YouTube this morning.
I know I'm past the discount period, but they've offered to extend it for some reason. That's the weird bit. They're extending it for 14 days from the date of this letter (9th September).
Here's the letter that came with it:
http://s1.postimg.org/8vw87dz0v/IMG_4157.jpg
Pete
could do with seeing what you wrote to them, It appears that as yet they have not considered a challenge (because you have not made one) or the are going to consider your challenge if you don't pay up in 14 day's and they are going to reject.
If that's not failing to consider i don't know what is
should have said fettered discretion
could do with seeing what you wrote to them, It appears that as yet they have not considered a challenge (because you have not made one) or the are going to consider your challenge if you don't pay up in 14 day's and they are going to reject.
If that's not failing to consider i don't know what is
should have said fettered discretion
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 15:27)
Pete
could do with seeing what you wrote to them, It appears that as yet they have not considered a challenge (because you have not made one) or the are going to consider your challenge if you don't pay up in 14 day's and they are going to reject.
If that's not failing to consider i don't know what is
could do with seeing what you wrote to them, It appears that as yet they have not considered a challenge (because you have not made one) or the are going to consider your challenge if you don't pay up in 14 day's and they are going to reject.
If that's not failing to consider i don't know what is
I didn't think to make a copy before I sent it unfortunately. But it was something like "Dear Sir / Madam, please take this letter as an official request to view the CCTV footage from LSXXXXX. Yours faithfully, Peter...". That's literally it, no fluff. Annoyingly, their letter makes it sound like I was making an appeal!
The council have a duty under the regulations to consider any representations made in time (28 day's) the also have a duty to inform you of their findings either by cancelling the PCN or by issuing a NOR (notice of rejection)
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:05)
The council have a duty under the regulations to consider any representations made in time (28 day's) the also have a duty to inform you of their findings either by cancelling the PCN or by issuing a NOR (notice of rejection)
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
Interesting, thank you! Anything with the video footage? It doesn't show me going past a sign that details the times it's in service so surely they can't prove that I passed one?
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:40)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:05)
The council have a duty under the regulations to consider any representations made in time (28 day's) the also have a duty to inform you of their findings either by cancelling the PCN or by issuing a NOR (notice of rejection)
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
Interesting, thank you! Anything with the video footage? It doesn't show me going past a sign that details the times it's in service so surely they can't prove that I passed one?
Yes if that's all they have then a case can be made on that also. No guarantees so you have to decide if you want to take this to adjudication or pay the discount
Think I would fight this with help from the guy's on here
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:59)
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:40)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 16:05)
The council have a duty under the regulations to consider any representations made in time (28 day's) the also have a duty to inform you of their findings either by cancelling the PCN or by issuing a NOR (notice of rejection)
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
By telling you they will issue a NOR if you do not pay the discounted amount within 14 day's and before you have made any challenge for them to consider, they have stepped outside the procedure so the pcn should become unenforceable
Interesting, thank you! Anything with the video footage? It doesn't show me going past a sign that details the times it's in service so surely they can't prove that I passed one?
Yes if that's all they have then a case can be made on that also. No guarantees so you have to decide if you want to take this to adjudication or pay the discount
Think I would fight this with help from the guy's on here
Think that's a good idea. Not sure what to do next though? I have a feeling that they've extended the discount to try and get me to pay up quickly. If they thought they'd win if it went to an adjudicator then why would they be offering me a discount that they don't have to?
You could well be right about the discount, it's not the first time we've seen it with Leed's. As to what to do next, subject to the thoughts of others i would wait for the NOR.
This could go one of two way's for you.
They reject your challenge even though you have not made one, obviously no consideration
They actually send you a charge certificate (next step) but they cannot do this if they have not sent a NOR to the challenge they have said you made
Then we can also get onto the signage or lack of it and lack of evidence
This could go one of two way's for you.
They reject your challenge even though you have not made one, obviously no consideration
They actually send you a charge certificate (next step) but they cannot do this if they have not sent a NOR to the challenge they have said you made
Then we can also get onto the signage or lack of it and lack of evidence
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 14 Sep 2015 - 19:23)
You could well be right about the discount, it's not the first time we've seen it with Leed's. As to what to do next, subject to the thoughts of others i would wait for the NOR.
This could go one of two way's for you.
They reject your challenge even though you have not made one, obviously no consideration
They actually send you a charge certificate (next step) but they cannot do this if they have not sent a NOR to the challenge they have said you made
Then we can also get onto the signage or lack of it and lack of evidence
This could go one of two way's for you.
They reject your challenge even though you have not made one, obviously no consideration
They actually send you a charge certificate (next step) but they cannot do this if they have not sent a NOR to the challenge they have said you made
Then we can also get onto the signage or lack of it and lack of evidence
But if I do nothing and just wait for an NOR then there's no challenge anyway so therefore nothing for them to consider anyway? Would I not have to make an actual challenge for that? Or will it be something like "I didn't make a challenge because they told me it would be rejected anyway"?
My thinking is that if they are treating your request to see the video as a challenge then they must send you a NOR and allow you 28 day's to pay or Appeal to the adjudicator.
The letter they have sent you is in essence a NOR. A NOR is required by statute to contain certain information, this does not
When they send the official NOR with the required information then you appeal to the adjudicator
If they claim that you did not make a challenge , what is the point of the letter.
The relevant regs
the vehicle shall be deemed to be its owner for the purposes of these Regulations.
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
Not sure , would like the thoughts of others on that. My thinking is that if they are treating your request to see the video at a challenge then they must send you a NOR and allow you 28 day's to pay or Appeal to the adjudicator.
The letter they have sent you is in essence a NOR. A NOR is required by statute to contain certain information, this does not
When they send the official NOR with the required information then you appeal to the adjudicator
If they claim that you did not make a challenge , what is the point of the letter.
The relevant regs
the vehicle shall be deemed to be its owner for the purposes of these Regulations.
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
Not sure , would like the thoughts of others on that. My thinking is that if they are treating your request to see the video at a challenge then they must send you a NOR and allow you 28 day's to pay or Appeal to the adjudicator.
Guy's your thoughts on this please. is there a n argument to be made or should the OP just pay the discount
I don't think they have issued a formal notice of rejection, but they seem to be pointing out that having viewed the video, the OP can still pay the discount within 14 days, but if not, they say they will issue a Notice of Rejection, which is a bit odd. I think they are confused by the cr*p bus lane legislation we are stuck with. I think we all know that the Bus Lane legislation and regulations are flawed, but there seems to be no rush in government to put matters right. I have lobbied my local MP so far without result !!
PATROL state, on bus lanes, that some councils may re-offer the discount if an appeal is made within the 14 day discount period, but that the recipient of a bus lane PCN needs to check.
The Bus Lane Guidance from the DfTis still provisional since its publication in 2008 !! I see the AA are at last getting worked up about overzealous bus lane enforcement; a bit late IMHO
PATROL state, on bus lanes, that some councils may re-offer the discount if an appeal is made within the 14 day discount period, but that the recipient of a bus lane PCN needs to check.
The Bus Lane Guidance from the DfTis still provisional since its publication in 2008 !! I see the AA are at last getting worked up about overzealous bus lane enforcement; a bit late IMHO
Pete
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
just sticking this here for future reference
Case Reference: 2100308010
Declarant: Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Authority: Kingston Upon Thames
VRM: xxxxxxxxxxxx
PCN: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Contravention Date: 19 Sep 2009
Contravention Time: 10:23
Contravention Location: Eden Street
Penalty Amount: £120.00
Contravention: Being in a bus lane
Referral Date: 24 Jun 2010
Adjudicator: Teresa Brennan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons: Mr XXXXXXX raises numerous issues in relation to this appeal. One of these is that he states that adequate and proper signage was not in place at the time of this alleged contravention.
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
Case Reference: 2100308010
Declarant: Mr xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Authority: Kingston Upon Thames
VRM: xxxxxxxxxxxx
PCN: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Contravention Date: 19 Sep 2009
Contravention Time: 10:23
Contravention Location: Eden Street
Penalty Amount: £120.00
Contravention: Being in a bus lane
Referral Date: 24 Jun 2010
Adjudicator: Teresa Brennan
Appeal Decision: Allowed
Direction: cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Enforcement Notice.
Reasons: Mr XXXXXXX raises numerous issues in relation to this appeal. One of these is that he states that adequate and proper signage was not in place at the time of this alleged contravention.
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 11:05)
Pete
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Thanks for all of your help!
I can't confirm the route unfortunately as I don't know the area at all, that's the first time I've ever driven round there (found it very confusing). I was heading home, south towards Birmingham if that helps?
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 17:43)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 11:05)
Pete
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Thanks for all of your help!
I can't confirm the route unfortunately as I don't know the area at all, that's the first time I've ever driven round there (found it very confusing). I was heading home, south towards Birmingham if that helps?
Where had you been, only two route to where you were caught so should be able to work it out
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Boar+Ln...0c127fa8c30543d
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 19:16)
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 17:43)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 18 Sep 2015 - 11:05)
Pete
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Having given some thought to this, maybe it will be better to submit a challenge, regardless we will end up in the same place.
Let's try submitting before the 22nd (the last day of the 14 mentioned in their letter)maybe they will re-offer the discount again. To be in time re the PCN it has to be by the 25th anyway.
I would challenge on the lack of/or incorrect signage and that the video does not show any signs being contravened.
Can you confirm your route and as street view is a bit out of date if the layout is the same.
It look's like there are two possible routes you took to end up at the Boar Lane restriction. Infirmary St or Park Row. as the signage is different for both( both wrong) need to know which
If you let me know i will put something together pointing out the signage errors
Thanks for all of your help!
I can't confirm the route unfortunately as I don't know the area at all, that's the first time I've ever driven round there (found it very confusing). I was heading home, south towards Birmingham if that helps?
Where had you been, only two route to where you were caught so should be able to work it out
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Boar+Ln...0c127fa8c30543d
Just checked the map and was parked: 15 S Parade, Leeds LS1 5PQ, UK
Turned right going out of there if that helps!
Pete you can use this in full or edit to suit or throw in the bin as you see fit. You can send your challenge by e mail so give others a chance to comment
YOUR DETAILS
Reference PCN Number xxxxx
vehicle reg number xxxxx
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an(appointment or whatever change to suit) in South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured as I did not see it.There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area. As am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me No signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location
the view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments Should be considered
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
As such this appeal should be allowed
YOUR DETAILS
Reference PCN Number xxxxx
vehicle reg number xxxxx
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an(appointment or whatever change to suit) in South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured as I did not see it.There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area. As am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me No signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location
the view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments Should be considered
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
As such this appeal should be allowed
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 19 Sep 2015 - 17:57)
Pete you can use this in full or edit to suit or throw in the bin as you see fit. You can send your challenge by e mail so give others a chance to comment
YOUR DETAILS
Reference PCN Number xxxxx
vehicle reg number xxxxx
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an(appointment or whatever change to suit) in South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured as I did not see it.There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area. As am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me No signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location
the view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments Should be considered
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
As such this appeal should be allowed
YOUR DETAILS
Reference PCN Number xxxxx
vehicle reg number xxxxx
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an(appointment or whatever change to suit) in South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured as I did not see it.There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area. As am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me No signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location
the view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments Should be considered
Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal.
As such this appeal should be allowed
Edited that and submitted today, thanks very much! Fingers crossed. I'll let you know how it goes. Travelling back to Leeds on Sunday so I guess I'll have to be ridiculously careful not to do something similar again... though I think driving slowly to pay extreme attention to the signs is probably more dangerous but I'm sure they don't mind that...
I don't really expect the council will fold, but if not there is more that can be put to the adjudicator re the advance warning of a NOR. and whatever else come from that notice
OK so appealed with this:
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
QUOTE
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Fri, 2 Oct 2015 - 18:07)
OK so appealed with this:
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
QUOTE
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
Is that it, have they sent anything else
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 2 Oct 2015 - 19:28)
QUOTE (h2o pete @ Fri, 2 Oct 2015 - 18:07)
OK so appealed with this:
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
QUOTE
I appeal against the imposition of this PCN on the following grounds.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
The contravention did not occur. The signs and markings are insufficient to warn a motorist of the restriction.
Living in Birmingham, I am aware of the signs and marking associated with bus lanes. I am a careful considerate driver and was quite upset to receive this penalty charge, as such I undertook some research via Google street view, and as a result believe that the PCN was issued without foundation.
I attended an audition in near South parade Leeds. Upon leaving I had to turn right due to a no left turn restriction, onto Park row and followed the road to leave the city.
Research has shown that part way down park row there is a Motor vehicles prohibited sign with a time plate and the legend buses and taxis only. I contend that this sign was obscured or not present as I did not see it. There are no signs prior to this. so when you arrive at this point the only option would be a dangerous U turn there is no other signage or road markings that would indicate a bus lane.
There are no further signs along this route until after the point where my car was captured on CCTV.
Signs and marking should be such that they convey a warning to motorist that are unfamiliar with an area, as am I. I contend that this is not the case here and the Appeal should be allowed.
The contravention did not occur.
Leeds council have failed to establish a contravention. As can be seen from the video supplied to me, no signs are shown being contravened, the video does not show a wide angle in order to establish location.
The view of PATAS adjudicator Teresa Brennan re case number 2100308010 when she made the following comments should be considered:
"Following an adjournment I have now seen the CCTV footage. This shows Mr Tyler's car in the bus lane driving towards the camera. The footage does not show any of the bus lane signs or any of the signs that Mr Tyler would have driven past before entering the bus lane. The local authority relies on a map of Eden Street that has been annotated to show the location of cameras and the bus lane and other traffic sings. However I have not seen any evidence that this signage was in place on 19 th September 2009. Therefore I allow this appeal."
As such this appeal should be allowed.
I should also add that I sent a letter to simply request CCTV footage that was received by you on 3 September 2015. In your reply, you sent me the CCTV footage, but also specified that if I don't pay £30.00 within 14 days I would receive a formal notice of rejection. By telling me that you will issue a notice of rejection if I don't pay this discounted amount, before I have even made a challenge for you to consider, I believe that you have stepped out of the guidelines (by effectivley saying that you will not consider any challenge that I make) and therefore I believe that this PCN is now unenforceable.
They sent this letter as a reply:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
So, they've offered the discount yet again... I'm guessing they've done this because they just want to try and get me to pay quickly. Why would they offer an extension on the discount TWICE if they thought they'd win went it went to an adjudicator?
Is that it, have they sent anything else
Just the standard page telling you how to pay, visit the website, phone, etc. Nothing different then when I got it before.
Pete let me see everything, there is a lot of information that they have to give you if they haven't you win
Basically this lot
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
payment.
Basically this lot
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
payment.
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 2 Oct 2015 - 23:49)
Pete let me see everything, there is a lot of information that they have to give you if they haven't you win
Basically this lot
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
payment.
Basically this lot
(3) Where an authority is not satisfied that any of the statutory grounds of appeal is established,
the notice served in accordance with paragraph (1)(b) must be a notice stating that they do not
accept that the ground has been established (“a notice of rejection”).
(4) A notice of rejection shall—
(a) state the reasons for the authority’s decision;
(b) state that an appeal against the imposition of the penalty charge may be made to an
adjudicator within the appeal period;
© specify the statutory grounds of appeal;
(d) describe in general terms the procedure for making an appeal;
(e) state that an adjudicator has power to make an award of costs;
(f) indicate the circumstances in which the power may be exercised; and
(g) state that unless, before the end of the appeal period—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) an appeal is made to an adjudicator against the imposition of the penalty charge,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by 50 per cent and take steps to enforce
payment.
This was the last page: http://s14.postimg.org/hkzqt7xpc/IMG_4283.jpg
So all 3 pages:
http://s21.postimg.org/ori53jhba/IMG_4280.jpg
http://s21.postimg.org/4y61au3xi/IMG_4281.jpg
http://s14.postimg.org/hkzqt7xpc/IMG_4283.jpg
pete not forgotten you, will do something over the weekend
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.