Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NCP Car park Dundee PCN
FightBack Forums > Queries > Private Parking Tickets & Clamping
djmc
Hi,

Just found this forum.

The first day my new car arrived I parked in NCP car park in Dundee, the spaces are very small and this one had a pillar in it and my car was parked over the line of the bay as I was cautious about scratching my new car, I was not concerned as I didn't know they issued tickets for this.

I returned to find a ticket on my car. I could not see written anywhere in the car park the terms and conditions (which it says on the ticket are clearly visible ) I appealed to NCP online and they since rejected my appeal and sent a very small unreadable image of a sign outside the car park entrance. On reading the sign in person the only thing it says about terms and conditions is that they are available from the office inside the car park. This doesn't make sense to me as to read the terms and conditions I would need to either park in the car park first or park somewhere else to come and read them.

I am not sure whether I should continue to fight this or if I have to pay up?

Grateful for any advice.

Thanks,

David

StuartBu
It's a pity you didnt find this Forum before contacting NCP as I think the advice would have been to ignore the ticket . In your letter to them did you say you were the driver ?
cabbyman
Windscreen ticket. Presumably pre-NtK so, probably was the driver!!!!!!
freddy1
or a keeper that found a ticket hidden under his wiper when his friend returned the car
StuartBu
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sat, 22 Aug 2015 - 21:05) *
Windscreen ticket. Presumably pre-NtK so, probably was the driver!!!!!!

I did consider that based on what OP says in his post but we dont know what he said in his letter to NCP which is why I asked if he disclosed he was the driver.
emanresu
QUOTE
On reading the sign in person the only thing it says about terms and conditions is that they are available from the office inside the car park.


Scots law is based on the "meeting of minds" on the offer. The issue that the signs were not clearly visible indicates that the driver - and it can only be the driver - will not have been able to agree a contract.

Ignore everything except a letter before action or a something from the Sheriff.

It is uneconomic for them to process to court in England. The Scots system is even more so with far more stages than south of the border.

I'd be interested in any paperwork though if you want to PM me.

NCP do own this car park, as it is one of the few PFI car parks in Scotland.
djmc
Thanks for the replies, unfortunately I did reveal I was the driver in my appeal s wasn't aware of the sigificance.
nosferatu1001
Again, for a single ticket it is quite unlikely for them to proceed to court.

You coudl mitigate their costs (you're being reasonable if you do this) by stating that you will not make any payments to that company unless ordered by a Scots Court, therefore debt collector letters are a waste of everyones time and money

This reiterates you know the jurisdiction...
djmc
QUOTE (emanresu @ Sun, 23 Aug 2015 - 06:09) *
QUOTE
On reading the sign in person the only thing it says about terms and conditions is that they are available from the office inside the car park.


Scots law is based on the "meeting of minds" on the offer. The issue that the signs were not clearly visible indicates that the driver - and it can only be the driver - will not have been able to agree a contract.

Ignore everything except a letter before action or a something from the Sheriff.

It is uneconomic for them to process to court in England. The Scots system is even more so with far more stages than south of the border.

I'd be interested in any paperwork though if you want to PM me.

NCP do own this car park, as it is one of the few PFI car parks in Scotland.


Thanks for the advice. If it gets to ' a letter before action or a something from the Sheriff.' what would you recommend then take advice?

Happy to send on the documentation try to send tonight.
nosferatu1001
Come back here for advice.
kommando
There is another option, POPLA are the parking ADR for England & Wales, POPLA is not offered to Scottish parkers but there is not a good alternative. So you could send in a request for ADR.

As my appeal has not been not upheld I request access to Alternative Dispute REsolution that substantively meets the "The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015 "

If they offer POPLA then using this site you can win this second appeal.

If they refuse POPLA then they could only raise a claim risking being seen as unreasonable.
Lynnzer
QUOTE (kommando @ Tue, 25 Aug 2015 - 09:49) *
There is another option, POPLA are the parking ADR for England & Wales, POPLA is not offered to Scottish parkers but there is not a good alternative. So you could send in a request for ADR.

As my appeal has not been not upheld I request access to Alternative Dispute REsolution that substantively meets the "The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Competent Authorities and Information) Regulations 2015 "

If they offer POPLA then using this site you can win this second appeal.

If they refuse POPLA then they could only raise a claim risking being seen as unreasonable.

Agreed.
Do it now and keep us up to speed with what response you get.
The new ADR gives you 12 months to sort things out amicably. However it's new and such hasn't been tried before on parking related issues, unless someone knows better.
NCP may be unaware of how this works, or what the legislation requires so this is an ideal way to bring it to their attention.
It'll also get a lot interest from other members and even other forums.
kommando
Here's one I did earlier for a person who outed themselves as a driver in Scotland.

Dear SMART,
ref PCN no XXXXXX, I note your letter of xx/xx/2015 ref XXXXXX has rejected my appeal and demanded £100 but have not provided a POPLA code. I refer you to 2015 No. 1392 CONSUMER PROTECTION The Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Amendment) Regulations 2015. These require that UK consumers are afforded access to ADR for a period of 12 months. Consequently you need to issue a POPLA code so I can use this ADR process. I therefore require you to issue a POPLA code or cancel your invoice within 14 days. If no reply is received within 14 days I will consider the matter closed and any further communications will be considered harassment.

Your sincerely

XXXXXXXXX

Smart refused

Thank you for your recent communication.

I acknowledge your comments requesting a POPLA verification code however POPLA codes are only available for PCN's which
are issued in England and Wales as your PCN was issued in the Scotland area we can not provide you with a POPLA code, as
the is no independent appeals service available in Scotland and Ireland.

The PCN will remain due for payment.

So then I had the driver reply saying they would keep said letter as evidence of Smarts unreasonableness and if a claim was raised it would be provided to the court as part of the defence.
djmc
Hi,

Just an update I sent in a reply re a POPLA code letter over 2 weeks ago - to date no reply.
Do you think it worked or will the next communication be a debt collector at the door. tongue.gif
nosferatu1001
No debt collector will show at your door. They get pennies on the pound so it would be economically stupid.
TonyS
QUOTE (djmc @ Wed, 16 Sep 2015 - 22:01) *
Hi,

Just an update I sent in a reply re a POPLA code letter over 2 weeks ago - to date no reply.
Do you think it worked or will the next communication be a debt collector at the door. tongue.gif

In the unlikely event that they do escalate to legal action, you'll get plenty of notice and time to respond. Just keep the forum updated if you receive anything in writing.
djmc
Hi,

Today I received a letter from Debt Collection company.

'Demand for payment of unpaid parking charge £149.00 ...

What if you don't pay what you owe
If you are liable for this charge and do not pay the full amount by 14/10/2015 or if you have agreed a payment option with us by then, we will recommend to the creditor that court action should be taken to recover what you owe.
'

I have received no reply from NCP to my letter.

Advice appreciated,

Thanks
nosferatu1001
Drp by any chance?

Ignore them.
djmc
Yes DRP
emanresu
QUOTE
Ignore everything except a letter before action or a something from the Sheriff.


Have you done this yet?
djmc
Hi, sorry not sure what you are referring to but only/last thing I did was send the letter to NCP requesting a POPLA code, I haven't done anything since I received the DRP Demand for payment letter.
kommando
He is suggesting you ignore the DRP letter and all subsequent letters unless they are a letter before action or court papers. NCP have realised you have them in a quandary and now hope a blizzard of toilet paper is a good alternative. NCP by not replying have confirmed you have nothing to worry about.
djmc
Hi,

I have received two new letters last week.

First letter from DRP

'In order to comply with pre-action protocol and to deomstrate to the court their attempts' to settle this mattter before the need for court proceedings, our client is prepared to accept a reduced payment of £119 in full and final settlement' etc

Second Letter from NCP in response to my letter saying their reason for rejecting my appeal was invalid and requesting a POPLA.

'We are now unable to reassess your appeal or overturn the original decision'

Please note that Scotland is not covered by POFA, POPLA is not available

You now have the following options £50 in next 14 days or full charge £100 after'
kommando
You can ignore DRP, with NCP they have fallen into the trap. Write back to NCP noting their refusal to offer ADR and tell them you will be keeping the letter on file, if they try to ever raise a claim you will inform the judge of their unreasonable behaviour and claim for costs. You could add in a timeline for them to either raise a claim or you will consider the matter closed. Ie 14days
nosferatu1001
As above

There is no keeper liability, so they can never chase you. They have now refused to settle this outside of court, using ADR, and so going to court would be unreasonable

The letter from DRP is yet more crap. Ignore DRP, they can do nothing.
kommando
QUOTE
There is no keeper liability, so they can never chase you.


He identified himself as the driver, hence the request for ADR showing the OP as being reasonable and the subsequent rejection of ADR by NCP as being unreasonable. POFA 2012 does not apply but POPLA will rule on Scottish sites if requested so NCP have painted themselves into a corner, they could have allowed a POPLA appeal but chose not to. So the OP is back to the position he was in before he named himself after sending the letter informing them he will keep their refusal on file for a judge.
nosferatu1001
Cheers, forgot they outed themselves. Crappy monday smile.gif

Still as said, unreasonable refusal of ADR == oopsy if it came to court
kommando
NCP had only 3 choices.

1. Accept the ADR and pay £27 to be beaten at POPLA.

2. Refuse ADR and hope they may get the OP to pay if the DRP toilet paper is effective wink.gif .

3. Cancel the ticket.

So 2 gave them the best financial outcome they could expect and they went for it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.