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Mack247
Hi all,

I have received my third PCN from these guys over the past year. The first one I only opened the letter on the payment deadline day and knew nothing about appeals so I paid it. The second one I did a bit of research for, found this site, appealed, they rejected my appeal, then went to POPLA and won my appeal because they never responded to give their side.

Now I've received another, but this is the worst by far.

For this one I drove over to the same local supermarket which has a free car park, policed by CPM. The car park was full but somebody was leaving the supermarket for their car which was parked directly opposite the entrance. I drove up and stopped outside, allowed my wife out of the car while I waited for the other car to pull out and then parked in the vacant space where I waited for her to return. This whole process took, a minute or two max - literally the time it takes for somebody to put three or four bags into a boot and reverse out and drive off.

A week later and I have a PCN from CPM showing two images - one minute apart, of the car stopped. I appealed and explained that the car was stopped momentarily and that my passenger got out while another car vacated their space. I told them that the driver never left the vehicle during the 1-2 mins it was stopped and that I considered the issue of the PCN as an abuse of their position. Their camera evidence will completely support this. The appeal rejection I got was a generic one which included the line "It is the drivers responsibility to ensure are restrictions are adhered to prior to leaving the vehicle unattended".

The whole thing is a complete waste of my time. They didn't consider anything I said and simply rejected with a standard letter beginning "we have carefully considered your appeal...".

I have submitted my POPLA appeal which again I expect to win, but I am very angry that I even have to get involved in this process. Is it possible to make a complaint and have them investigated or have action taken against them?
Hellfire8
So you were not parked but "stopping" and unloading/loading

Pic of the signs? pretty sure it doesn't say you can not unload/load
Mack247
Sign says "NO PARKING OUTSIDE OF A DESIGNATED AREA/PARKING SPACE".

They also added in their rejection letter:

"If you are unable to park within a designated area/bay then you should refrain from parking until you can park correctly in accordance with the restrictions".

Which is exactly what I did. So incredibly frustrating.

Not sure how they expect anybody to even read the sign if they will issue a PCN for even stopping momentarily?

My concern now is not about winning my appeal, but about stopping these people from harassing myself and others. I don't want to go through this again for something so unnecessary.
kommando
But they will cos they can, but win enough of these POPLA appeals at a cost of £27+ each to them and they will eventually add you to a whitelist.
Hellfire8
See the PPC guy on duty was a bit dodgy with this as he should have "mitigated the company losses" by warning you instead of just ticketing.

very dodgy but not unusual. tbh little you can do, they're ruled by the BPA but they don't give a flying hoot.....

win at popla and cost them some money. it's about it tbh
Mack247
There was nobody visibly on duty, this was a camera, presumably with an operator watching from some other location.
Hellfire8
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 10:34) *
There was nobody visibly on duty, this was a camera, presumably with an operator watching from some other location.


Probably sitting in their car waiting and spying.....
Albert Ross
If it was within the confines of a car park, it was in the parking area.
Hellfire8
QUOTE (Albert Ross @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 10:52) *
If it was within the confines of a car park, it was in the parking area.


But it isn't parking, it's dropping off/picking up.
freddy1
now CPM are a member of the IPC , who happily publish a code of practice

http://www.theipc.info/resources/brandings...of-Practice.pdf

page 13 of 36

and I quote them

"Grace Periods
15.1 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so
they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.
15.2 Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or
permitted period of parking has expired."


stuff that back in there faces , and ask why they are not following there trade associations code of practice

and if I have got it wrong and they are BPA

BPA Grace periods http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/bpa_...ctober_2012.pdf


page 10 (I think)


Your approach to parking management must allow a
driver who enters your car park but decides not to park,
to leave the car park within a reasonable period without
having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’
in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the
driver is on your land without permission you should still
allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave
before you take enforcement action.
Mack247
Thanks Freddy. The problem is that there isn't even an opportunity to stuff it back in their faces because they don't even consider any appeal information and simply reject the appeal with standard wording. Would the BPA or IPC even take any action against them for issuing a PCN in this instance? It feels as though they intend to issue as many PCNs as they can, reject all appeals and just play a numbers game on the basis that most people will not proceed to POPLA because of a) the hassle and time involved in doing so and b) the possibility that the appeal gets rejected on the basis of some legal technicality the appealant wasn't aware of.
freddy1
I think they are IPC , not the BPA , so there is no POPLa , just a micky mouse appeals system

however quoting there code of practice , and the words of the operator "If you are unable to park within a designated area/bay then you should refrain from parking until you can park correctly in accordance with the restrictions". they will "fudge" over this , and over ride the COP

look nice in court , IF it ever got that far , that you followed the PPC guidelines (waited) and the PPC would not adhere to there trade associations COP

next time you are there , look out for the wardon , he will be the one in uniform , or displaying clear identification , sat in a LIVERED vehicle

if for some reason you spot a guy in a dirty raincoat sat in an old focus , with a camera , take a photo , as that's 2 x 2 sanction points for CPM ,

after the photo , please inform the police of a person sat for hrs in his car on a supermarket carpark looking shady with a camera
nosferatu1001
The IPC will take no action. They're a bunch of cowboys

You could write back, rejecting their offer to pay, and state you will be happy to resolve this through ADR that substantively meets the ADR regulations. The IAS does not meet these, in the slightest. Point out that you will note in ADR their failure to abide by their own code of practice by not allowing a grace period
Mack247
They are IPC and BPA and have issued a POPLA code. I have appealed.
freddy1
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 11:46) *
They are IPC and BPA and have issued a POPLA code. I have appealed.




please give us the full name of the parking company , and link us to there website , or give us the full address


they cannot be in 2 trade associations regarding ATA , thy can however be a member of the IPC as an ATA and a BPA corporate member


is it this lot http://www.cpmsmanchester.com/


Mack247
Apologies, they are BPA only.

I went to the BPA website and found this:

BPA members

If you wish to complain about a BPA member, you should write to the company or organisation in question in the first instance giving full details of your complaint. We are unable to assist with complaints about individual parking incidents, but if you believe there has been a breach of our code of professional conduct, you can provide feedback.

The feedback word at the end is a link to http://www.britishparking.co.uk/404i.aspx?...rewrite%3dfalse, if you click it you get this:

Page Not Found...
Sorry, the page you were looking for could not be found. Please try returning to the home page.
freddy1
yes the company is called UK car park management (CPM)

http://www.uk-carparkmanagement.co.uk/

they are listed as being both a BPA ATA and a BPA corporate member

the name of the company in your header was reading CPM and leaded to http://www.cpmsmanchester.com/


hope you linked and quoted from there code of practice

good luck

QUOTE (Mack247 @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 12:07) *
Apologies, they are BPA only.

I went to the BPA website and found this:

BPA members

If you wish to complain about a BPA member, you should write to the company or organisation in question in the first instance giving full details of your complaint. We are unable to assist with complaints about individual parking incidents, but if you believe there has been a breach of our code of professional conduct, you can provide feedback.

The feedback word at the end is a link to http://www.britishparking.co.uk/404i.aspx?...rewrite%3dfalse, if you click it you get this:

Page Not Found...
Sorry, the page you were looking for could not be found. Please try returning to the home page.



aos@britishparking.co.uk is a very good shortcut , or even Steve.C@britishparking.co.uk
Mack247
Thanks, I have submitted a complaint to BPA regarding the conduct of CPM through the general enquiry part of their website and asked for it to be forwarded to the correct area. I have a feeling they will say something about not getting involved in individual cases even though I specifically said in my message that my complaint is not about the appeal being accepted or not but about the conduct of CPM in breaching the Code of Conduct re Grace Periods.
The Rookie
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 11:46) *
They are IPC and BPA and have issued a POPLA code. I have appealed.

I hope you properly prepared that appeal!
Lynnzer
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Thu, 20 Aug 2015 - 10:23) *
Sign says "NO PARKING OUTSIDE OF A DESIGNATED AREA/PARKING SPACE".

They also added in their rejection letter:

"If you are unable to park within a designated area/bay then you should refrain from parking until you can park correctly in accordance with the restrictions".

Which is exactly what I did. So incredibly frustrating.

Not sure how they expect anybody to even read the sign if they will issue a PCN for even stopping momentarily?

My concern now is not about winning my appeal, but about stopping these people from harassing myself and others. I don't want to go through this again for something so unnecessary.

Maybe the Beavis case will put an end to it. Maybe not but here's hoping anyway.
Morning session here
Afternoon session here.

They're long and take a second or third watch to get all the nuances but it looks good for Beavis on the face of things.
Just hope one or more of the Lords keep tabs on these sort of forums.
Mack247
Good progress so far, AOS have agreed to investigate:

Thank you for your enquiry.

UK Car Park Management are members of the BPA and the Approved Operator Scheme (AOS).

Thank you for informing us of the error message on our website, we have informed the relevant department.

Regarding your issue with UK CPM and a grace period, we do advise the following statement in our Code of Practice;

13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

If you can supply us the parking charge notice number, date and time this was issued we can look into this for you.

The BPA is a membership association and not a regulatory body and we are unable to get involved in individual parking charge notices or the appeals process. We can offer guidance on these however, and are happy to investigate evidence of possible breaches of the BPA Code of Practice.

Kind regards
AOS Investigations Team
Lynnzer
And that's another reason the Lords in the Beavis case should be aware of the real world situation.
The BPA was presented as a quasi legitimate body with a code of practice stitched together by all and sundry for the "benefit of the driver" and the general public.
Hogwash.
kommando
Have a look in the Smart Parking Ashdown thread for the expected BPA reply.


Notvunexpecyed but definitely not helpful.
Mack247
Yes you are right, again no confirmation regarding the specifics of the grace period. These guys are as bad as each other. Regardless, the outcome of the POPLA appeal is set for Friday 25/09 so I will update after that.

We have investigated your complaint with the Operator and can advise as follows.

The Operator has confirmed what the grace period is for this site and this is to allow enough time for motorists to read the terms and conditions and decide whether to stay or leave. If the motorist leaves they should not be issued with a parking charge notice. The grace period UK Car Park Management allow is reasonable and is compliant with our Code of Practice.

According to the Operator your vehicle was parked and left on site for a period of time. The grace period does not apply if the site is left – it is only there to give enough time for signs to be read.

In view of the above, the Operator has not breached our Code of Practice and therefore I have closed the investigation.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Kind regards,

AOS Investigations Team
Lynnzer
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Wed, 16 Sep 2015 - 12:00) *
Yes you are right, again no confirmation regarding the specifics of the grace period. These guys are as bad as each other. Regardless, the outcome of the POPLA appeal is set for Friday 25/09 so I will update after that.

We have investigated your complaint with the Operator and can advise as follows.

The Operator has confirmed what the grace period is for this site and this is to allow enough time for motorists to read the terms and conditions and decide whether to stay or leave. If the motorist leaves they should not be issued with a parking charge notice. The grace period UK Car Park Management allow is reasonable and is compliant with our Code of Practice.

According to the Operator your vehicle was parked and left on site for a period of time. The grace period does not apply if the site is left – it is only there to give enough time for signs to be read.

In view of the above, the Operator has not breached our Code of Practice and therefore I have closed the investigation.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Kind regards,

AOS Investigations Team

Load of old


When asked by one of the Lords in the Beavis case about there being a grace period, it was stated that there was one, but he wouldn't say what it was.
Well as far as I'm concerned that is a failure of a contractual condition by withholding an important element.

Doesn't matter how much you complain though. It'll get nowhere.
Mack247
Anybody aware of delays in getting POPLA decisions? My appeal was given a date of Fri 25th September but I have not had any update yet. Emailed them this morning but the auto reply says to expect a response within 5 days.
emanresu
QUOTE
Anybody aware of delays in getting POPLA decisions?


If your appeal was with old POPLA - closing tomorrow - it is likely to have gone into a pile now sitting on the BPA desk which they intend to sort at a later date. If you registered your appeal with the new POPLA - starting Thursday - then they will have contacted you to advise what to do next.
Mack247
I think it was old Popla. Appeal confirmation message received was in the same format as what I got with my previous appeal last year but in that instance the appeal and decision notification happened on the day in the letter.

We have received your appeal.
This will now be sent to UK Car Park Management Limited.The operator will send their evidence to us and to you before the scheduled date of hearing. Your appeal will be considered on or soon after 25 September 2015 . You will be notified of the decision as soon as it is available, in the manner you selected.
Gan
There's a backlog of about 4000 appeals that were put on hold until the Beavis result if GPEOL was the only appeal point

They're now in limbo :

Old POPLA is in dispute with the BPA over an unpaid bill for about £170k
New POPLA doesn't see why they should deal with them

Unless somebody else steps in with an offer, I can see the BPA inviting the IAS to clear them up

Would have been easier if old POPLA simply accepted all the appeals but didn't charge their £27 fee that they're already struggling to recover.
They accepted about 50% of appeals anyway so it wouldn't leave the parking companies seriously out of pocket.
Bernard Rentajag
QUOTE (Mack247 @ Wed, 16 Sep 2015 - 12:00) *
Yes you are right, again no confirmation regarding the specifics of the grace period. These guys are as bad as each other. Regardless, the outcome of the POPLA appeal is set for Friday 25/09 so I will update after that.

We have investigated your complaint with the Operator and can advise as follows.

The Operator has confirmed what the grace period is for this site and this is to allow enough time for motorists to read the terms and conditions and decide whether to stay or leave. If the motorist leaves they should not be issued with a parking charge notice. The grace period UK Car Park Management allow is reasonable and is compliant with our Code of Practice.

According to the Operator your vehicle was parked and left on site for a period of time. The grace period does not apply if the site is left – it is only there to give enough time for signs to be read.

In view of the above, the Operator has not breached our Code of Practice and therefore I have closed the investigation.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Kind regards,

AOS Investigations Team

That's either some poor proof reading, or a policy of doing whatever they feel like.
Mack247
Got this reply from Popla yesterday evening:

A decision has not yet been made for this case.

Although we provide a date when your case will fall into a list to be considered, please be aware that this is the date that your case will be placed before the Assessor and may not actually be the date that your case will be decided.

Please be assured that your decision will be dispatched as soon as it is available.

Kind Regards

POPLA Administration Team
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