Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shenfield Station - Faded Yellow Box with Parking Bay within it..
FightBack Forums > Queries > Private Parking Tickets & Clamping
GrumpOldCrow
A stupid mistake on my part (yep my hands are fully up) but do I have an appeal case.... or just lump it and pay the fine for being stupid..

On 17th July at 17:49 I parked at Shenfield Station Car Park. Upon parking I had parked in a Yellow Junction Box that also had a parking bay within it (Which box came first huh.gif ).
Upon my return at 21:30 I had been issued a Parking Charge Notice at 19:26 from NCP on grounds of: Code J3 – Parked on or within a no parking area.

My case:
1 - I was not obstructing any vehicles at the time of parking.
2 – Upon parking within box I could clearly see a parking bay – refer to photo’s.
3 – No signs to say – No Parking Here.
4 – Time of day parking.
5 – All parking bays and yellow box paint is fading.

I’ve supplied some photos that I’d taken a few days later as well as a photo from the night returned.

Look forward to your response.





Lynnzer
Do they quote byelaws?
GrumpOldCrow
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Mon, 27 Jul 2015 - 13:10) *
Do they quote byelaws?


Afraid I don't know.
Lynnzer
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Mon, 27 Jul 2015 - 13:15) *
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Mon, 27 Jul 2015 - 13:10) *
Do they quote byelaws?


Afraid I don't know.

Ah, so you haven't kept the ticket and the Notice to Keeper hasn't arrived. When it does come back on and let us know.
You should get this within 14 days from date of incident.
Don't do anything in the meantime.
GrumpOldCrow
Sorry, yes I have the printed ticket that was put on my windscreen from NCP, as well as my £2.70 parking ticket for that evening...

Surely if I don't appeal now (before 14 days are up) I will then have to pay the higher charge..

Lynnzer
No payment to be made. Just wait until you get the notice to keeper and come back here.
The reason for this is that if you do it at this stage you will effectivley be saying you were the driver which is easier for them to progress to a court case. Unlikley but possible.
If you wait until you get the NTK it becomes more difficult and there are many things that can go wrong with their timings in ralation to satisfying the requirements of PoFA that they will rely on.
It will be killed at POPLA anyway at their cost.
Relevant Land, is sufficient appeal point to kill it dead in its tracks
GrumpOldCrow
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Mon, 27 Jul 2015 - 15:09) *
No payment to be made. Just wait until you get the notice to keeper and come back here.
The reason for this is that if you do it at this stage you will effectivley be saying you were the driver which is easier for them to progress to a court case. Unlikley but possible.
If you wait until you get the NTK it becomes more difficult and there are many things that can go wrong with their timings in ralation to satisfying the requirements of PoFA that they will rely on.
It will be killed at POPLA anyway at their cost.
Relevant Land, is sufficient appeal point to kill it dead in its tracks


Ok I shall take your advice and await the NTK.

Thank you for the info.
GrumpOldCrow
Hi Lynnzer (or anyone else that can help)

I've now received my NTK....



What's the best way to go now on this?
nosferatu1001
In the month or so since the NTK, your research on here will have shown you that, with NCP, your next step is a short and sweet appeal, wher eyou refer to THE DRIVER only, never disclosing any clue as to the drivers Identity. You include the salient points from above, and always state the charge is an unconscionable and extravagent penalty.

State that, if they refuse to cancel it, you require a code for POPLA where you will get POPLA to cancel it on your behalf, with the help of your friends at PEPIPOO.
The Rookie
Brilliant, no mention of PoFA, no keeper liability, so you appeal as 'the keeper' anything 'the driver did' you example as 'the driver' (no I or we for example).

Just appeal that the sum demanded is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and is unconscionable under the circumstances and that should they reject you require an alternative dispute resolution and are prepared to use POPLA.

nigelbb
Presumably NCP do not claim keeper liability because this is not relevant land as it is covered by railway bylaws.
GrumpOldCrow
Thank you for your comments, I will try and wright something up today and send back.
Lynnzer
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 11:04) *
Thank you for your comments, I will try and wright something up today and send back.

No you won't.
You will knock up something you think will be OK and post here to have it looked over first.
It's a matter of getting them to refuse the appeal which is a natural consequence but then doing it at POPLA (who knows the name of new mob taking over from POPLA?)
nosferatu1001
POPLA is staying as POPLA
It is being run by the OS, not London Councils
The name is the same, the organisation behind it is not
GrumpOldCrow
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 17:10) *
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 11:04) *
Thank you for your comments, I will try and wright something up today and send back.

No you won't.
You will knock up something you think will be OK and post here to have it looked over first.
It's a matter of getting them to refuse the appeal which is a natural consequence but then doing it at POPLA (who knows the name of new mob taking over from POPLA?)


Haha, ok I follow you. Here goes then...

This is the Photo's they have..


I need to fill this in on there site..


What I've typed up..


1 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, the car is parked in a parking bay (white box) with a paid ticket shown in photo 6 in the window.
2 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, the car is not obstructing any other vehicle from entering or exiting the entrance to the car park.
3 - As seen in photo 1, there is enough space for at least 2 to 3 cars to pull in if a car wishes to get past to exit the car park.
4 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, there is a yellow box junction, but due to the wear and tear of the lines and the fact that the original parking bay was not removed when the yellow box junction was painted, NCP do not have grounds to issue a ticket of; Parked on or within a no parking area.
5 - If NCP wish for this area to be a; No Parking Zone, then NCP need to provide clearer signage and the removal of the parking bay will ensure this would not happen in the future.

Due to the above case, the demand sum of £75.00 is not a genuine pre-estimate and is unconscionable and extravagant penalty. If NCP refuse to cancel the ticket a POPLA code will be required.

........................................................

Of course take apart how you see fit biggrin.gif
nosferatu1001
Preface it with, as they have not met the conditions of POFA2012, you require they take the matter up with the driver. You consider the matter closed

If they persist, then you wish to note that (your appeal)

If they reject, you require a code for POPLA, where it will be cancelled for them. GIven they have failed to meet Keeper liability requirements, forcing this matter to go to POPLA is vexatious in the extreme, and as such you will require your reasonable costs of £18 per hour to be reimbursed when your appeal is upheld.
cabbyman
Is there a postal address for the appeal? If so, duplicate what you put on that form and send it by first class post, obtaining a free proof of posting from the post office counter. DO NOT send signed for; they can refuse to sign it so it doesn't get delivered.
nigelbb
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 17:34) *
4 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, there is a yellow box junction, but due to the wear and tear of the lines and the fact that the original parking bay was not removed when the yellow box junction was painted, NCP do not have grounds to issue a ticket of; Parked on or within a no parking area.


I think it unwise to acknowledge that you think that the yellow box junction markings were painted after the white parking bay markings. The paint in both cases is very worn so it could easily have been the other way round. Your innocent assumption is that the yellow markings are to be disregarded as they are so worn & a white parking bay has been marked out on top.
GrumpOldCrow
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 17:34) *
4 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, there is a yellow box junction, but due to the wear and tear of the lines and the fact that the original parking bay was not removed when the yellow box junction was painted, NCP do not have grounds to issue a ticket of; Parked on or within a no parking area.


I think it unwise to acknowledge that you think that the yellow box junction markings were painted after the white parking bay markings. The paint in both cases is very worn so it could easily have been the other way round. Your innocent assumption is that the yellow markings are to be disregarded as they are so worn & a white parking bay has been marked out on top.


Yes you are very much correct, I will re-wright that section. Thank you.


QUOTE (cabbyman @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 20:23) *
Is there a postal address for the appeal? If so, duplicate what you put on that form and send it by first class post, obtaining a free proof of posting from the post office counter. DO NOT send signed for; they can refuse to sign it so it doesn't get delivered.



Yes they do provide a postal address, I will send out tomorrow. Thank you.
Lynnzer
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 20:58) *
QUOTE (GrumpOldCrow @ Thu, 3 Sep 2015 - 17:34) *
4 - As seen in photo 1 & 3, there is a yellow box junction, but due to the wear and tear of the lines and the fact that the original parking bay was not removed when the yellow box junction was painted, NCP do not have grounds to issue a ticket of; Parked on or within a no parking area.


I think it unwise to acknowledge that you think that the yellow box junction markings were painted after the white parking bay markings. The paint in both cases is very worn so it could easily have been the other way round. Your innocent assumption is that the yellow markings are to be disregarded as they are so worn & a white parking bay has been marked out on top.

Yellow boxes have no meaning at all on private land. Simple, just like requirements to show Blue Badge.
GrumpOldCrow
Well, Its been some weeks but I finally got a response back......surprise surprise rejected...
I guess the route to go down is now POPLA. Do I just send the same letter to these people?




nosferatu1001
No

As your research in here in the time you spent waiting for the rejection will have told you, you go to completed cases, draw up a formal appeal, using all applicable points, and post here for critique.
GrumpOldCrow
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 5 Oct 2015 - 18:39) *
No

As your research in here in the time you spent waiting for the rejection will have told you, you go to completed cases, draw up a formal appeal, using all applicable points, and post here for critique.



Thank you for your very frank response nosferatu, but in all due respect (and as you can probably tell) I am very new to all this...like most people who join.
When first searching the forum I had read much information but became very lost in it all, hence needing some help/guidance and starting a thread.
The help so far has been hugely appreciated thankyou to all, but I would say to you; the next time you wish to be so direct have a thought that not all have the time/knowledge etc..hence a polite response back is all that is required (or just don't bother at all)

Cheers.
emanresu
QUOTE
a polite response back is all that is required (or just don't bother at all)


Nice to see someone live up to their name! (joke)

The key to this is whether a) the signs were visible and b) whatever was on the signs relate to what they are claiming.

The pictures show a) the signs were not visible and were unlikely to be at at night and b) since yellow lines are meaningless without the relevant contractual term there was no contract nor breach of the same.

Add in the amount they are claiming is extravagant and unconscionable.
anon45
Don't forget the 'not relevant land' appeal point, since parking is subject to railway byelaws.
Lynnzer
Don't forget the appeal. You can kill this ticket at POPLA so PLEASE string something together and post here for critique.
Loads of appeal points in the completed cases section.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.