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Full Version: PCN for parking in 'loading only 30 mins max' space
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kapid123
hello,
I got a council parking ticket on my windscreen, 4 days ago, in pudsey, leeds, for parking in a ''loading only 30 mins max' space. I noticed on the parking ticket that there is no observation time, stating start and end time of observation. It only has a single time of offence and that time is the same as the time the ticket was issued. Also the location is just down as 'park square - pudsey'. When I search for that on google map, it goes to Rawdon, Leeds, which is miles away from where I was parked. Please let me know if I have any grounds on which to get the ticket cancelled.

pcn front:


pcn back:


GSV:
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DancingDad
Park Square Leeds brings up Park Square, City Centre, just south of Leeds Infirmary and a few miles from Pudsey, whether it comes into the Pudsey area no idea though seems a bit far.
Park Square Pudsey brings up Rawdon, some little cu de sac which streetview gives no name on and is as near to Bradford as Leeds.

So location may be one issue.

Lets see the PCN, there are often wording issues on Leeds paper.
If you were loading, another more certain challenge.
Incandescent
Give us a GSV reference, and any photos there might be, it can help greatly to see the environs of the alleged contravention.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 26 Jul 2015 - 22:02) *
Give us a GSV reference, and any photos there might be, it can help greatly to see the environs of the alleged contravention.

I'm sure the OP can work out where they were parked on Google maps and provide a streetview link.
Whether this will be Park Square remains to be seen, the one in the city centre has no loading bays I can find.
kapid123
I have added the pics of PCN and GSV on post now. please check.
Incandescent
OP, which side were you parked, the sign side or the opposite side ? Sign quite clear, and applies 24x7 as there are no times on it.
DancingDad
On location.
Main road seems to be Church Lane going on pstal address of pup and library.
In the small precinct behind is a shop called Bubbles. Postal address No1 Park Square.

Personally, I reckon an adjudicator is likely to accept Park Square
kapid123
What about, both the time of offence and time of issue being the same, a single time eg 14:33. There's no observation time start and end stated.
If following was the senario, then would I have a chance:
If I had my car parked on sign posted side and I unloaded a largle item to return to B&M store next door. And if this happened between the time I parked and time of offence, duration 15 mins.
hcandersen
OP, you were engaged in whatever you were doing, which as yet you've not told us. We then advise on the law. You seem to want us to tell you what are permissible defences and you give the impression that you would then 'adapt' your account to suit.

Loading covers unloading, collecting and delivering which terms and their application to parking have been debated at length by the courts.

If your are bang to rights, then so be it. It's not necessarily the end of the matter as they must follow detailed procedures, but inevitably the full penalty would be at risk.
kapid123
Earlier on I put a pic of the front of the PCN and I forgot to wipe out the time. I have taken that pic off yesterday. But just worried, as stated in the help info. in this forum, that any specific info. could allow council parking office, to use the details from here in court. Hence the reason for writing in a 'what if' manner.
So from last reply, am I correct in assuming that unloading is allowed, in the sign which states 'loading only 30 minutes'? if that is the case then what if I had a refund receipt from the B&M store(next to parked area) showing that I returned a large bicycle carrier that I unloaded from the car. And that the time on the refund receipt was just 15 mins before time on pcn. If I added another 5 mins to that, to get the stuff out, get it to store and get refunded, that would make total time around 20 mins from parking the car to the time on pcn. so inside the 30 minutes restriction on sign. Would this be solid grounds on which the pcn can be cancelled?
Also there is no observation start and end time stated on pcn. could that invalidate the pcn?
DancingDad
While we do recommend removing personal details as councils can use what is said if they can find it, we also recommend telling the truth.
Matters not to us if someone tells porkies. We simply give advise on what is said and if that is based on inaccurate information, it is the OP who gets poor advice.
But it is a criminal offence to tell lies to the council and although I've never seen anyone prosecuted, as a minimum, being caught out in one lie wrecks credibility on everything.

If you were loading, it is a valid reason to be in the loading bay and all that you need to claim.
Council will want some proof such as receipt for goods, photos, delivery note etc etc.

Loading can take as long as needed, up to a maximum of 30 minutes in that bay.
This does not mean that you can spend 5 minutes loading and 25 parked, loading is as long as needed, not one second more.

Loading is typically, for private vehicles, needs based.
So the item should be large, heavy, bulky or awkward. Not just using the loading bay for convenience when the item is small enough to drop in a pocket.
Includes collection pre-ordered items but not shopping for them first.

Usually, in a loading bay the CEO will observed for a few minutes to see if any loading activity. This observation period does not have to be on the PCN. Will need to be on their notes or risk an adjudicator tossing the thing for lack of evidence on council's side.

So returning a large item to a shop.

I was returning ???? which was faulty.
As this item needed a fork lift truck and three strong guys, I used the loading bay. (use own words smile.gif)
Organising an exchange/refund took a few minutes (as the manager had to authorise and had to be found ?) but no longer then needed.
I enclose a copy of the cancelled receipt for your records.
As I was using the loading bay for a legitimate purpose that your CEO may not have recognised, please confirm cancellation.
hugs and kisses.

If that is what the situation was, tell them. Keep it simple and to the point.
Time to start hunting for technical issues when the relevant exemption is rejected despite being valid
John U.K.
QUOTE (kapid123 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 10:09) *
Earlier on I put a pic of the front of the PCN and I forgot to wipe out the time. I have taken that pic off yesterday. But just worried, as stated in the help info. in this forum, that any specific info. could allow council parking office, to use the details from here in court. Hence the reason for writing in a 'what if' manner.
So from last reply, am I correct in assuming that unloading is allowed, in the sign which states 'loading only 30 minutes'.



For almost every alleged offence dates, times, and location are essential to establishing the contravention and essential to enabling helpful and meaningful advice to be given.

There has to be a balance weighed by the person seeking advice between the possibiity of identifying the PCN by those inimical to your succeeding in countering the allegation and the need to obtain useful advice.

Hence, whilst the thread on how to post photos is useful on the how, the general opinion here is obscuring names, addresses, PCN & Reg.Nos. is sufficient. You will find from browsing that those who have successfully contested PCNs with advice here have revealed dates, times and location without adverse effects.

Also, some of the questioning by the experts here may sometimes seem obscure or even a little harsh. But they are playing "devil's advocate".... they know the sort of questions an adjudicator may ask and may trip the unwary.
You were there and know the situation: we only know what you choose to reveal.
Incandescent
There is no "court" in the CPE (Civil Parking Enforcement) process, so I really don't know why your worrying about the council seeing the PCN as we ask that you blank out the PCN Number and your car details. Many PCNs contain errors and many of these can render the PCN unenforceable.

If you were, indeed, returning a large and bulky item to the B&M store, then you appeal the PCN because you were loading (unloading). You need to provide some sort of proof, like a receipt for goods, and maybe a description of the goods in terms of weight and size.
SX4
You say you was unloading a large bicycle carrier and have a refund receipt 15 mins before PCN was issued , so when you returned the carrier and got the receipt ,your unloading had finished so you should have returned to your vehicle which would have not taken 15 mins as the store was next to where you parked unless you carried on shopping.
This is what the adudicater would look at if you took an appeal all the way to TPT
The 30 mins allowed is for loading / unloading not for parking after unloading is finished
SX4
Op what is the contravention code , if it is code 25 the CEO would normally give 5 mins observation time for a private car .
But if it is code 23 it would mean that the loading bay is a goods vehicle loading bay which does not need an observation time unless it is a goods vehicle
DancingDad
QUOTE (SX4 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 19:05) *
Op what is the contravention code , if it is code 25 the CEO would normally give 5 mins observation time for a private car .
But if it is code 23 it would mean that the loading bay is a goods vehicle loading bay which does not need an observation time unless it is a goods vehicle


Sign says a normal loading bay so would be nice if the CEO put 23.

Do not try to account for time differences. There is nothing to say till has correct time set. Or for that matter the CEO machine.
kapid123
It is code 25. I have now added pic of front of pcn.
Is pcn invalid because it doesnt state observation start and end time, like I have seen in other pcn's on this forum.
Also refund reciept for returning goods from car had time 13:14 and time on pcn is 13:28. So a 14 mins gap. Now after getting the refund reciept I helped store staff package the item back into its box, which involved dismantling it and get it to fit back into its box. It took a while to dismantle because it was tightly screwed together and the store staff took a while to find some tools to help with that.
kapid123
Good news!! I got my ticket cancelled with following email to appeals office:

I would like to appeal PCN ............ on following grounds:

On 20th July, I parked in a ‘loading only 30 minutes’ parking bay at 13:25pm, so that I could return, a large bicycle carrier(fits on back of car and carries three large bicycles) to B&M store nearby. As this item was large, I used the loading bay. Attached is the refund receipt, which has time 13:34pm. After getting the refund I helped store staff package the item back into its box, which involved dismantling it and getting it to fit back into its box. It took a while to dismantle because it was tightly screwed together and the store staff took a while to find some tools to help with that. After which I went back to car within 30 minutes of parking in loading bay and found PCN on my windscreen. Pcn had time 13:48.

I enclose a copy of the refund receipt for returning large bicycle carrier and also the purchase receipt for your records.

As I was using the loading bay for a legitimate purpose that your CEO may not have recognised, please confirm this PCN can be cancelled.
DancingDad
Good enough.
Well Done
hcandersen
As a poster who keeps their devil's advocate uniform to hand, this goes to show what can happen when we get a full and frank account.

Well done. 😊
kapid123
QUOTE (SX4 @ Tue, 28 Jul 2015 - 18:50) *
You say you was unloading a large bicycle carrier and have a refund receipt 15 mins before PCN was issued , so when you returned the carrier and got the receipt ,your unloading had finished so you should have returned to your vehicle which would have not taken 15 mins as the store was next to where you parked unless you carried on shopping.
This is what the adudicater would look at if you took an appeal all the way to TPT
The 30 mins allowed is for loading / unloading not for parking after unloading is finished

Thankyou all for your help. All your replies helped a lot, especially above, which raised an important point that I needed to answer, to succeed in the appeal.
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