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johngt40
Hi Guys,

Just received a bus lane PCN from Leeds council along with photos (see uploaded info). I am not from Leeds (50 miles away), so l do not know the city and followed my sat nav to my destination, although l did get lost a couple of times even with the sat nav because of Leeds atrocious one way system. I had to take my wife to the Leeds Dental Institute as she is having serious problems with her teeth which local dentists cannot seem to rectify. I do not know if there is any way l can fight this and if anybody out there can give me any advice it would be much appreciated. As pensioners we cannot really afford to pay the fine but if l can do nothing about it l will bite the bullet and pay the reduced fine of £30. Thanks in advance for any info given.
Incandescent
You really must get out of the habit of blindly following sat nav directions in cities. Sat navs don't usually have the bus lane restrictions, so you must look out for signs. Being mislead by sat nav is not a valid appeal ground I'm afraid, you need something stronger than this, like poor or missing signs. Also you need to view the video to see if they show you fully in the bus lane and also, importantly, passing a sign. Appeals have been won on this latter point.

If you want to appeal all the way, you have to forego the discount option, (£30) and risk the full £60
DancingDad
Have you seen the video?

In this location, if you continued on through the lights and this is shown on the video, it will be difficult to argue against the contravention itself.
Though we have some arguments on signs and lack of warning.
If you pulled out of the lane and made the left turn or the video stops before going through the lights, is winnable as the only really valid signage is on the lights.

Can you remember if you came to the system along the main road or from a side street?
If the latter, which one?
PASTMYBEST
Have a read of this thread. but get the video, if you can post it up. As per DD the direction you approched the bus lane from may well be important


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97821
johngt40
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sat, 25 Jul 2015 - 13:18) *
You really must get out of the habit of blindly following sat nav directions in cities. Sat navs don't usually have the bus lane restrictions, so you must look out for signs. Being mislead by sat nav is not a valid appeal ground I'm afraid, you need something stronger than this, like poor or missing signs. Also you need to view the video to see if they show you fully in the bus lane and also, importantly, passing a sign. Appeals have been won on this latter point.

If you want to appeal all the way, you have to forego the discount option, (£30) and risk the full £60


OK, l agree about sat navs but when in an unknown city it is hard to find the place you are going to and street maps don't show speed/bus lane cameras either! I take it that you have to go to Leeds to view the video which l do not intend to do, nor do l ever intend to visit Leeds again.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 25 Jul 2015 - 13:21) *
Have you seen the video?

In this location, if you continued on through the lights and this is shown on the video, it will be difficult to argue against the contravention itself.
Though we have some arguments on signs and lack of warning.
If you pulled out of the lane and made the left turn or the video stops before going through the lights, is winnable as the only really valid signage is on the lights.

Can you remember if you came to the system along the main road or from a side street?
If the latter, which one?


No l have not seen the video and if it means going back to Leeds l will not be doing that. I cannot even remember going in the bus lane or going through the lights but going by the photo l suspect l went through the lights. I take it that this bus lane is a 24/7 lane so looks like l will just have to pay the fine.
Thanks for the reply.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 25 Jul 2015 - 15:09) *
Have a read of this thread. but get the video, if you can post it up. As per DD the direction you approched the bus lane from may well be important


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97821


OK, thanks for the reply, not knowing Leeds at all it is very difficult for me to remember anything about driving round Leeds. I will look over the forum you mentioned although there is a lot to take in but thanks anyway.
DancingDad
The PCN tells you how to arrange a viewing. Though not with the prescribed information that the act requires so we can use that.
But on Monday phone them and ask how to get to see the video as you cannot get back to leeds, can they post a copy on DVD or is it online anywhere?
And will they hold the discount if you request in writing until you have seen the video?
Nothing else on the phone, no discussions of the contravention, satnav, getting lost or whatever, stick simply with the video viewing so you can make a decision.

Briefly on the signs etc.
Leeds treat the small area with the solid white line as a bus lane. But no required signs, limited pre-warning signs on the main road and none on side roads.
In terms of absolute, black or white, enforcement, that area is a shade of grey, neither here nor there. Close enough to legislation that an adjudicator may decide to reject an appeal but far enough away that they should not. If you decide to challenge, we need to put forward enough that an adjudicator, sometime in future is more likely to find for you then against.
On the lights there are a pair of bus gate signs. These are 100% correct and as far as I am concerned the only signs that can be used to enforce the contravention. Lack of warning etc still count but far less chance IMO of winning at adjudication.
But previous videos we have seen do not show the vehicle passing these signs only looking like it might. Hence the need to see the video so we can see what an adjudicator will and try to work out how likely they are to decide you went through the bus gate.
johngt40
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 26 Jul 2015 - 12:10) *
The PCN tells you how to arrange a viewing. Though not with the prescribed information that the act requires so we can use that.
But on Monday phone them and ask how to get to see the video as you cannot get back to leeds, can they post a copy on DVD or is it online anywhere?
And will they hold the discount if you request in writing until you have seen the video?
Nothing else on the phone, no discussions of the contravention, satnav, getting lost or whatever, stick simply with the video viewing so you can make a decision.

Briefly on the signs etc.
Leeds treat the small area with the solid white line as a bus lane. But no required signs, limited pre-warning signs on the main road and none on side roads.
In terms of absolute, black or white, enforcement, that area is a shade of grey, neither here nor there. Close enough to legislation that an adjudicator may decide to reject an appeal but far enough away that they should not. If you decide to challenge, we need to put forward enough that an adjudicator, sometime in future is more likely to find for you then against.
On the lights there are a pair of bus gate signs. These are 100% correct and as far as I am concerned the only signs that can be used to enforce the contravention. Lack of warning etc still count but far less chance IMO of winning at adjudication.
But previous videos we have seen do not show the vehicle passing these signs only looking like it might. Hence the need to see the video so we can see what an adjudicator will and try to work out how likely they are to decide you went through the bus gate.


OK thanks for that.
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