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Singh23
Before using my car yesterday, I noticed a PCN notice stuck to my windscreen. I didn't even notice it until that point, so it would have been on there for a couple of days (parked in a garage).

The PCN packet itself was empty and it seems that whatever was inside was torn out as you would expect as if somebody have removed the PCN notice from inside.

I have a vague idea of where this may have occurred - in my local area on a broken single yellow line. I assume my first course of action is to return to the site where I parked my car and take photos of signs and the broken single yellow - though again, I'm only half sure that it may have occurred there.

I was wondering what advice you would be able to give, particularly towards the empty notice. I assume contacting the council in the first instance wouldn't be wise.

Thank you!
John U.K.
QUOTE
I assume contacting the council in the first instance wouldn't be wise.


Why not?

If you do nothing and a PCN was indeed issued then things will escalate. To start with, you may well lose any discount offered.
The Council may well have an online facility for checking a PCN. It will provide contact details for paking enforcement. In your shoes I would ask them if they have a record of a PCN issued against your registration mark, as you have discovered an empty envelope affixed. Do not enter into specualtion with them as to any possible contravention or location. Keep a record of the conversation and to whom you spoke. Ask if they will send you a copy and hold the discount. If they won't, ask to speak to a supervisor. If they say no to request for a copy or no record of PCN issued ask to confirm that in writing or email.

That way, should things progress further, at least you can show you have taken reasonable steps to deal with the matter from the beginning.

If there was a PCN, and they send a copy, you can proceed in the usual way.
bama
empty PCNs not that unusual.
sometimes its just some pratt's idea of fun, sometimes it may be a nasty trick by the CEO. Photographing the empty sleeve 'proves' they served the PCN....
We often see CEO 'fauxtography'...
there is more to this trick than just the photo of course.

as per the above get onto the council pronto and see what they have on record for your VRN
do not be surprised if they say there is a live PCN for yesterday.
just note what they say, absolutely no point in debating or arguing about it with the phone drone. By all means inform them that the envelope was empty and require them to make a note of that in the file (they may or may not make the note...)
hcandersen
Personally, I'd just deal with this by email addressed to parking services' whose address I'm certain you'll find online. Not by phone.

Dear Mr Parking,
Re: Vehicle registration number *********

On **** date I noticed what looked like a packet under my windscreen wiper. On closer inspection, I found that this was the envelope for a penalty charge notice and that it had been opened and was empty.

I've no idea whether this was taken from another person or what and would appreciate your help.

Hugs
bama
+1
Singh23
This was the response:

"Good Morning,

A Penalty Charge Notice was issued to the vehicle registration you have provided on the 21/07/2015 for parking on a single yellow line in XXX at 16:52.

You have fourteen days to make payment at the reduced amount of £55.00 or challenge the Penalty Charge Notice.

If your appeal is received within the first fourteen days of the issue of the notice, you will be offered the opportunity to pay the discount amount when you are rejected.

Regards

Parking Services"

What do you make of it? I do remember parking there, however I obviously did not actually receive the PCN - does this change anything? Also the single yellow line itself is broken - does this still apply?
bama
QUOTE
If your appeal is received within the first fourteen days of the issue of the notice, you will be offered the opportunity to pay the discount amount when you are rejected.


does it say "when"
Incandescent
Clearly a PCN has been issued. They have given you the brief details, so you can pay the discount, or submit an informal challenge. What could be the circumstances that gave rise to this PCN ?

If you do nothing, they will inevitably send a Notice to Owner to the keeper recorded on the V5 DVLA Registration document. Is this you ? Once the discount period ends, the full PCN amount becomes payable. An NtO can only be issued after 28 days have elapsed from the date of the alleged contravention. This can then be formally appealed. If rejected, you can take the matter to the adjudicators at no extra cost.

If the e-mail you received really does use the words "you will be offered the opportunity to pay the discount amount when you are rejected", then keep it carefully as it is useful ammunition if you end up at the adjudicators..
DancingDad
Right then.
If you could give a location or link to GSV (streetview) so we can take a look at the broken yellow lines, we can think on the actual contravention.

Whatever is the meat in the challenge, the sauce on top will be that the PCN was not served.
That they will continue to reject saying that someone must have removed it but assuming that this goes to adjudication, an adjudicator can decide.
Not only on whether or not a PCN was ever in the envelope but also how they deal with the issue.
hcandersen
The use of 'when' can be seen in a more charitable light and IMO is of no consequence.

OP, according to their reply you have until 3 August in which to make your risk-free challenge, although I suspect they'd extend this given that the PCN was not in the envelope when it was first noticed by you.

OP, did they include the PCN number in their reply? If not, then you need to get back to them because without it you cannot access their evidence photos online and are therefore prevented from giving proper consideration to your challenge.
Singh23
Their full response was as written above - nothing more. I do not have the PCN number, so I guess I should contact them on the phone for it. That will have to be on Monday and that's also the final date to pay the discounted charge. I am the registered keeper.

Here is a Google Map shortcut: https://www.google.com/maps/place/1+Limewoo...dec2434c8?hl=en

I was parked essentially where the Emergency Vehicle is parked on the street view image and I would have been there for around 20 minutes. I'll need to double check, but I believe the lines are slightly worse off than these pictures - though nothing substantial.
PASTMYBEST
I don't think the lines would fail the test of substantial compliance. The time plate turned away from the road may be something you can use providing it is still the same,but not strong. As HCA says if it's no risk then their response may open other avenues
Singh23
My response today:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Vehicle registration number XXX

Thank you for your response.

I am disappointed to read that I will have to pay £55 when I have not been given a PCN notice. How do I appeal or pay within 14 days if I have had no paperwork?

It's also very disheartening you believe that any appeal of mine will definitely be rejected.

Kind regards"
hcandersen
Have you sent this?
Singh23
Their response:

"Thank you for your email. The photographs taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer shows that the Penalty Charge Notice was attached to your vehicle. If you wish to challenge the Penalty Charge Notice, please visit our website https://bexley.self-serve.co.uk/. The contravention code is 01. Once your challenge is received, your case will be investigated further by an authorised officer.

Regards
Emma"


My response again:

"Dear Emma,

As previously communicated by email, I found an empty PCN sticker on my windscreen.

I have not been able to pay or even contest anything as I do not have a PCN number or any other information - other than what you have emailed me. 

Kind regards"

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 3 Aug 2015 - 10:38) *
Have you sent this?

Yes

Also the time plate on the road is still facing sideways as on street view.
Singh23
Their response today:

QUOTE
Your Penalty Charge number is XXX.

Kind regards
Cathy


My response:

QUOTE
Dear Cathy,

Thank you for your email. Could I please request a copy of the PCN and ask that you hold the discount? I have only today received the PCN number and the ability to examine the information.

Kind regards


Photo evidence of my vehicle (with plate information edited out). This shows there was a piece of paper inside the PCN packet at the time of serving:

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Singh23
I have also taken pictures of the sideways sign and broken yellow lines today. Ironically, a blue car is parked where I illegally parked and was issued a PCN in these photos (plates edited out):











Does the faded white line mean anything for me?


Opposite side of road (also broken):


Can anybody suggest my chances at an appeal and also which type of appeal I should lodge? I also have a blue badge which was not displayed at the time. These are the options I am afforded online:

hcandersen
C'mon OP, let's cut to the chase?

You parked a clear yellow line whose restriction you knew was in effect and chanced your arm that the broken line theory of defences might come to your rescue, yes?

It won't.

The line is clear enough, front and aft, as can be seen in the CEO's pics. The sign's twisted, but it's clear. No hope there, I'm afraid.

The PCN envelope also looks particularly visible.

All I can see are prospective procedural errors on their part (the probability of which is indeterminate, unless others have recent experience of this authority) set against a context of the full penalty once you've submitted your challenge.
Singh23
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 4 Aug 2015 - 15:39) *
C'mon OP, let's cut to the chase?

You parked a clear yellow line whose restriction you knew was in effect and chanced your arm that the broken line theory of defences might come to your rescue, yes?

It won't.

The line is clear enough, front and aft, as can be seen in the CEO's pics. The sign's twisted, but it's clear. No hope there, I'm afraid.

The PCN envelope also looks particularly visible.

All I can see are prospective procedural errors on their part (the probability of which is indeterminate, unless others have recent experience of this authority) set against a context of the full penalty once you've submitted your challenge.


I parked on the line not being aware of the restrictions - which is my fault. I also held the belief that broken lines such as those on the road are not valid.

There is also a faded white line in front of the black garage, next to where I was parked - though I am not sure what this may mean.

I have posted pictures in the off-chance that something may be found in my favour. I can only presume that the PCN was removed or fell out of the envelope whilst driving.
PASTMYBEST
Obvious from the photos that something was in the yellow envelope, so i think the council can claim to have served.

Your BB may be your best bet. Many councils will apply discretion when some one forgets to display the BB on one occasion but not if it is repeated.

The lines i think would be ruled compliant as would the sign, it is not hard to see and you do have a duty to look for the restriction when parking on SYL
hcandersen
As per PMB, as you acknowledge parking on the line then your obligation is to look for the restriction in the form of a traffic sign. This is clearly visible in the photo, so you couldn't have missed it if you had looked. So, your not knowing the restriction arises from not looking for it!

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I see no point in clinging to defences or excuses with no merit as this only serves to dilute our and your efforts.
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