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Chamber34
help needed please

had 2 speeding fines, recently.

im forgetful an unorganized! 1 I forgot to send of an other I sent unsigned

first one I was prosecuted for failing to disclose driver got 6 points an 300 fine! im in court august 19 for the second offence, I haven't pleaded yet, what do I do as I will get a ban!
I need licence for work. also I have 2 children 1 l;ives with me an I have order stating I have to take her to mums every 2 week (112 miles away) an othe ri collect from mums 20miles away, so need a car. what can I do as a ban will mean I lose my job, cant take daughter to mums an be in breach of court order, also I would struggle to get my other daughter as even though only 20miles away is be 2 buses an would struggle getting her home by bedtime

cant afford a solicitor

please help
peter
peterguk
Linked to this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=99543&hl=

A mod. will merge.
Chamber34
thanks but I have appealed fine for first offence an was reduced from 765 to 305! now I need help to avoid a ban! will have 12 points if I plead guilty to failing to singn the form, this will mean a ban, I need help in appealing so I don't get a ban sad.gif
peterguk
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:47) *
if I plead guilty to failing to singn the form, this will mean a ban, I need help in appealing so I don't get a ban sad.gif


So did you fail to sign the form?
Chamber34
I cant afford a solicitor. is there anyone who could help me pro bono or for a small payment? just need help putting a case together! desperate please

also I admitted the offence an gave correct details , driving licence number and address, just didn't sign it. they sent letter saying I need to sign it by a certain date, I forgot to do that , rang em up to say I will do it but they said it to late! is not signing form 'failing to name driver'??
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:57) *
is not signing form 'failing to name driver'??


Yes

Sounds like a complete mess of your own making, and I can't see what defence you could use. You will be on 12 points and banned for 6 months unless you can make a convincing argument that it will cause exceptional hardship ( to others , not you, ideally).
peterguk
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:57) *
I admitted the offence


So you don't appeal.

Is your hearing that's coming up for sentencing?
Jlc
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:43) *
Linked to this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=99543&hl=

A mod. will merge.

It sounds like a different case to that thread?

Chamber, what offences are being pursued?

Please confirm whether this is Scotland (I don't think it is).
Chamber34
been done last month for failing to identify driver , done 6points as forgot to send form in

next month im being charged with failing to sign , sent form in saying I admit offence but never signed it. I know its my fault as im just so lazy and unorganized sad.gif


I know it will be a ban, just I will lose my job. I have court order to see one child , an I have residency of another whicjh states I take her to mums every 2 weeks (112 miles away on a Friday evening)
I will be affected an probably fairly if I banned, but kids will miss seeing there mum or seein dad. could I use that as defence ? have I a chance or will I be banned?

i know not suigning is an offence, but i charged with failing to identify, i admitted i was driver just forgot to sign, have i a defence there???

i know im in worng just don't wnna be banned. what chance have i got an how do i defend myself best??

peter

in in wales

i have the form at home saying i summonsed on aug 19. asks me to plead guilty, not guilty etc an send means form off. i haven't done that yet. do i plead guilty and attend court , an plaed exceptional circumstances as i have kids to collect or drop of.
im a single parent so have no partner to do the travelling
i take daughter to leeds every other week on a Friday night after work. if im banned i lose job so could afford train, an even if could i get there to late at night. is that a valid reason not for ban??
Logician
Oh dear, you really have made things difficult for yourself by accidentally committing the failing to disclose driver offence, and then pleading guilty when if you had posted here first we might have been able to advise you to do a deal and get that dropped in exchange for pleading guilty to the speeding offence. But you are now where you are, looking at the prospect of a 6 month ban. What can you say to best present your case for exceptional hardship? Magistrates are not supposed to take into account any of the circumstances that led to accumulating points, but are only human and are likely to look more kindly on someone who carelessly forgot to sign the form or return the reminder than someone they think is trying to play games with the system. So first explain how you are forgetful and disorganised leading to the 6 points for that offence, and if the speeding does not sound too bad, tell them about that as well. Then explain your personal circumstances and the hardship a ban would cause to both your children, then why your job is at risk and whether that would mean that your loss of income would cause hardship to anyone else, eg could you continue to pay maintenance if you do, would your home be at risk and therefore one child lose their home, or any other consequence. You also need to say why it would not be possible to do your job without a licence, whether your employer could give you other work which would not lead a licence, the difficulty of finding other work which would not require a licence and why any journeys necessary could not be done by public transport or others driving. Do not forget throughout that hardship to others counts for more than hardship to yourself.
The Rookie
Is the second summons for Failing to provide the driver ID ONLY or for speeding as well?
Jlc
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 09:57) *
i know not suigning is an offence, but i charged with failing to identify, i admitted i was driver just forgot to sign, have i a defence there???
In England and Wales not signing is not admitting the driver. (Because an unsigned form cannot be submitted in evidence)

It's different in Scotland which is why I asked.

QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 09:57) *
i have the form at home saying i summonsed on aug 19. asks me to plead guilty, not guilty etc an send means form off. i haven't done that yet. do i plead guilty and attend court , an plaed exceptional circumstances as i have kids to collect or drop of.
im a single parent so have no partner to do the travelling
i take daughter to leeds every other week on a Friday night after work. if im banned i lose job so could afford train, an even if could i get there to late at night. is that a valid reason not for ban??
You haven't answered what charges are listed? It's very important as there's possibly a way to avoid 6 points.
AntonyMMM
So you got convicted once ..."forgot to send the form in".

The next one filled in but "forgot to sign" ....given another chance to sign but "I forgot to do that". Laziness or forgetting is no defence and just comes across as someone trying, very badly, to play the system.

What was the original offence alleged ... speeding ? There may be a remote chance of doing a deal if it was , otherwise:

You have no realistic option but to plead guilty - that will put you on 12 points and a 6 month ban automatically follows. You will have to attend court, or get a solicitor to attend on your behalf, and make an exceptional hardship case - whether your circumstances will be enough is impossible to say, all courts take a different view. Your apparent forgetfulness will not help with how the court perceives you so it largely depends on how well you prepare and present your case - be prepared for some serious questioning on other transport options you can use etc.
Pete D
What offences are you charged with, is it Speeding and Failure to Provide. Pete D
southpaw82
The court could always impose a short ban for the s. 172 offence, rather than six points, if it was so minded.
Chamber34
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 10:05) *
Is the second summons for Failing to provide the driver ID ONLY or for speeding as well?


just for failing to disclose

QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 10:07) *
So you got convicted once ..."forgot to send the form in".

The next one filled in but "forgot to sign" ....given another chance to sign but "I forgot to do that". Laziness or forgetting is no defence and just comes across as someone trying, very badly, to play the system.

What was the original offence alleged ... speeding ? There may be a remote chance of doing a deal if it was , otherwise:

You have no realistic option but to plead guilty - that will put you on 12 points and a 6 month ban automatically follows. You will have to attend court, or get a solicitor to attend on your behalf, and make an exceptional hardship case - whether your circumstances will be enough is impossible to say, all courts take a different view. Your apparent forgetfulness will not help with how the court perceives you so it largely depends on how well you prepare and present your case - be prepared for some serious questioning on other transport options you can use etc.


it was for speeding. I agree I was an idiot an should of replied, I didn't ........ how could I get a deal ??
cheers

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 11:17) *
The court could always impose a short ban for the s. 172 offence, rather than six points, if it was so minded.



172 is that failing to identify?


so I could ask for no ban or a short one??

QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 10:07) *
So you got convicted once ..."forgot to send the form in".

The next one filled in but "forgot to sign" ....given another chance to sign but "I forgot to do that". Laziness or forgetting is no defence and just comes across as someone trying, very badly, to play the system.

What was the original offence alleged ... speeding ? There may be a remote chance of doing a deal if it was , otherwise:

You have no realistic option but to plead guilty - that will put you on 12 points and a 6 month ban automatically follows. You will have to attend court, or get a solicitor to attend on your behalf, and make an exceptional hardship case - whether your circumstances will be enough is impossible to say, all courts take a different view. Your apparent forgetfulness will not help with how the court perceives you so it largely depends on how well you prepare and present your case - be prepared for some serious questioning on other transport options you can use etc.


boss will write me a letter saying I travel all over the county for work an there is rural loactions

will get train timetables showing that taking daughter to leeds wil take 5+ hrs on train/bus instead of 2 on a Friday night. will get cost of fares, show that I couldn't afford it, even with a job.

I will attend court, wont b able to afford a solicitor as was quoted 350pounds

QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:48) *
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 08:47) *
if I plead guilty to failing to singn the form, this will mean a ban, I need help in appealing so I don't get a ban sad.gif


So did you fail to sign the form?


yes didn't sign form , they wrote an asked me to but forgot . rang them up after deadline to say sorry an I wikll send it in, they said to late. my fault I know
The Rookie
If you are going to drive a car, you need to be better organised on your paperwork, neglecting to sign after you have been asked to makes it look even more like a deliberate ploy.

Yes Failing to furnish drivers details is contrary to Section 172 of the road traffic act 1988.

You can try a plea bargain, turn up at court EARLY, ask the clerk (person with a clipboard!) to point out the CPS prosecutor for your case, approach them and explain your situation, admit you have been rather 'silly' (replace as you feel appropriate) and ask if they consider an out of time speeding charge to which you will plead guilty if they drop the S172, this is much easier if you are dual summonsed (for speeding as well) than when not, but it's not impossible.

Your bosses letter needs to make clear he would have to 'let you go' if you lose your licence for more than 'X' amount of time and the impact this will have on the company and the rest of it's employees.

You can indicate to the bench that they may want to 'consider' a short ban for the single offence as being appropriate, but I doubt they would go for this, better to give you 12 points so you have to drive like Morgan Freeman (with Miss Daisy) for 3 years.
Chamber34
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 11:55) *
If you are going to drive a car, you need to be better organised on your paperwork, neglecting to sign after you have been asked to makes it look even more like a deliberate ploy.

Yes Failing to furnish drivers details is contrary to Section 172 of the road traffic act 1988.

You can try a plea bargain, turn up at court EARLY, ask the clerk (person with a clipboard!) to point out the CPS prosecutor for your case, approach them and explain your situation, admit you have been rather 'silly' (replace as you feel appropriate) and ask if they consider an out of time speeding charge to which you will plead guilty if they drop the S172, this is much easier if you are dual summonsed (for speeding as well) than when not, but it's not impossible.

Your bosses letter needs to make clear he would have to 'let you go' if you lose your licence for more than 'X' amount of time and the impact this will have on the company and the rest of it's employees.

You can indicate to the bench that they may want to 'consider' a short ban for the single offence as being appropriate, but I doubt they would go for this, better to give you 12 points so you have to drive like Morgan Freeman (with Miss Daisy) for 3 years.


just read it again , iam being charged for 2 offences. 172 and 81/89 road traffic act
If I plead guilty will there be a cps prosecutor there?

thanks for help mate I appreciate it
The Rookie
So speeding as well, thank goodness, see the prosecutor as suggested, and explain you are happy to plead guilty if they drop the S172, they will almost certainly do this, its why it is on the summons, you MUST do this in person and not by post - we had one poster try and they thanked him for the guilty plea and set the trial date for the S172 - so he won himself 9 points!
Jlc
This is a process you can do yourself and doesn't need a solicitor. But as noted it requires your attendance at court.

Read the above advice and ask additional questions - but do not submit a postal plea.
Chamber34
Thanks for advic
So I won't send any forms of pleading guilty or means forms etc
Turn up on the day an speak to see cps an ask to plead guilty to speeding. Hope they say yes, an get 3 points (42 in a 30)
If they say no I plead for executional circumstances, but they most likely agree to guilty to speeding 😃

Can hopefully stop worrying now. An have learnt a lesson to be more organised !!!

Thanks
Will turn up an let u know how I go
Jlc
You are offering to plead guilty to the speeding offence only if they agree to drop the s172 charge.

42 in a 30 is likely to be 4 points and you'll get normal sentencing guidelines:



Discounted by 33% for the guilty plea, costs of £85, criminal court charge of £150 (if the offence was on or after 13 April) and surcharge of 10% of the fine.

Personally I do not think the fixed penalty equivalent sentencing really applies here, but you may wish to be 'cheeky' and see if they'll consider it:

QUOTE
where a penalty notice was not offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


Have an 'exceptional hardship' plea ready just in case. This should concentrate on the impact on others as this carries more weight.
Chamber34
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 16:40) *
You are offering to plead guilty to the speeding offence only if they agree to drop the s172 charge.

42 in a 30 is likely to be 4 points and you'll get normal sentencing guidelines:



Discounted by 33% for the guilty plea, costs of £85, criminal court charge of £150 (if the offence was on or after 13 April) and surcharge of 10% of the fine.

Personally I do not think the fixed penalty equivalent sentencing really applies here, but you may wish to be 'cheeky' and see if they'll consider it:

QUOTE
where a penalty notice was not offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


Have an 'exceptional hardship' plea ready just in case. This should concentrate on the impact on others as this carries more weight.


the fixed penalty i will b cheeky and ask, would that be £100 , my monthly income is 1,200
Eligible for COFP instead? Yes: £60 + 3 points???what does this mean , could i have this??
so im looking at 4 points???? and a fine of between 206 and 344??

still a lot but better than a ban. will make sure i dont speed again and make sure i get more organized

will sleep better now knowing i wont get banned
Jlc
If you had named the driver properly then you would have had the offer of a fixed penalty (and a course but that's not relevant now). The wizard is wrong as it's £100 now.

The passage above is from the sentencing guidelines where under certain circumstances the court can sentence at a similar rate rather than the full guidelines.

As I said I don't think they would be minded to do this but if you don't ask I doubt they would do it on their own volition.
Chamber34
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 17:47) *
If you had named the driver properly then you would have had the offer of a fixed penalty (and a course but that's not relevant now). The wizard is wrong as it's £100 now.

The passage above is from the sentencing guidelines where under certain circumstances the court can sentence at a similar rate rather than the full guidelines.

As I said I don't think they would be minded to do this but if you don't ask I doubt they would do it on their own volition.


will defo ask, will wait until I been offered chance to plead guilty to speeding

thanks for all help
The Rookie
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Wed, 22 Jul 2015 - 16:22) *
executional circumstances,

It's exceptional hardship - any exceptional circumstances are irrelevant, even if they were involved in an execution!
Chamber34
Out of interest does the camera operator have to show you ID? This guy didn't show it as he did it's in wallet at home. Was good man try get of it by using that but I just gonna take what's comkng
Just wanted to know if they need to
southpaw82
QUOTE (Chamber34 @ Sat, 15 Aug 2015 - 14:51) *
Out of interest does the camera operator have to show you ID? This guy didn't show it as he did it's in wallet at home. Was good man try get of it by using that but I just gonna take what's comkng
Just wanted to know if they need to

No but in any case a civilian camera operator wouldn't be stopping you, only a police officer. If he's in uniform it's a bit silly asking to see his warrant card. A guy did it to me once (full uniform plus police car!) and turned a warning into a summons.
topc
Could have been a stripper with great attention to detail to their costume.

"I'm Officer Naughty, I can see you've been a bad boy! I saw you were going too fast, I like it to start off slow..."

etc.
southpaw82
QUOTE (topc @ Sat, 15 Aug 2015 - 16:03) *
Could have been a stripper with great attention to detail to their costume.

"I'm Officer Naughty, I can see you've been a bad boy! I saw you were going too fast, I like it to start off slow..."

etc.

You've obviously never seen me wink.gif
Kickaha
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 15 Aug 2015 - 16:54) *
QUOTE (topc @ Sat, 15 Aug 2015 - 16:03) *
Could have been a stripper with great attention to detail to their costume.

"I'm Officer Naughty, I can see you've been a bad boy! I saw you were going too fast, I like it to start off slow..."

etc.

You've obviously never seen me wink.gif

Or has got very "particular" tastes.
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