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Suspended Bay for BBC Filming, Suspended Bay and My rights to appeal
scarahj
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 14:48
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I parked my car in my road, I have a permit. At the time of parking there were NO signs prohibiting parking, when I went to my car a day later I had a ticket for parking in a suspended bay.

The BBC had decided to film in my road and gave a days notice.

The signs were 2metres off the ground.


My appeal has been denied, what do I need to right to further my appeal as this was an unfair ticket
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post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 14:48
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John U.K.
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 14:53
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As usual, please post up the PCN (both sides)
Also post up a copy of your challenge to the Council and their reply..

Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.

Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

Also a GSV link of the location, please.

Is this, by chance, the same location as in this thread?
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1084991

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 14:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 14:55
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Post up the PCN redacted, your appeal and the council rejection. Redact personal details only leave in dates times and location.
A GSV would also be helpful


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scarahj
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 15:31
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Challenge Rejected - 17 Days Until Full Charge

Vehicle make: VOLKSWAGEN
Vehicle colour: RED

Contravention: Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
Location: ANN STREET
Issue Date: 10/06/2015
Time of first sight: 11:42
Time of Issue: 11:44
Destination of notice: Attached to Windscreen
Outstanding amount: £35.00






I do not have the tools to scan PCN the information is the same as already posted.

I can't pull the images off the site.

Is less than a day enough to cancel a ticket on the basis no signs were up at time of parking and then they ticket me and threaten me with towing me away!



12/06/2015 Dear Ms
Re :
Letter of Rejection of Challenge – Traffic Management Act 2004 - s78; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007
PCN No
Date Issued
Location of Contravention Vehicle Registration No Contravention
: WU03554270
: 10/06/2015 11:44:32
: ANN STREET
: OV51CYO
: Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
I have received your challenge regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and after careful consideration of the circumstances have found no grounds for the cancellation of the charge.
The reason for issue of the PCN, is as follows:
Your vehicle was parked in an area where parking had been suspended. Temporary signs were in place and the evidence of this is enclosed. Your reasons for parking there are not acceptable as grounds for cancellation.
I have carefully considered your circumstances outlined and mitigation and have also considered the exercise of our discretion in line with our policies and procedures. The reasons for your case falling outside of our cancellation policy are:
 Please be advised that the parking in the area in which your vehicle was observed had been suspended between 7am on 9/6/15 until 7pm on 12/6/15. Signs in the area stated no parking between the above dates and hours.
Notice Processing, PO Box 198 Lowton Way, Hellaby, Sheffield S98 1LU Telephone 01903 239999 and ask for Parking Services
 The obligation upon the Council is to mark and sign those restrictions it wishes to enforce. In turn the motorist must comply with such restrictions that are reasonably brought to their notice. Common sense dictates that someone can only comply with something of which they have been made aware or ought to have known of had a reasonable enquiry been made.
 When parking the motorist is obliged on each and every occasion to consult the signage and or road markings to ensure compliance with restrictions in place irrespective of familiarity or otherwise with restrictions normally/previously in operation at the location in issue or to that end experience with other facilities elsewhere.
 The Articles of our TRO Part III Paragraph 9.3 allow parking bays to be suspended by the placing of appropriate signs in or adjacent to the suspended parking place indicating vehicles are prohibited from waiting or stopping.
 The suspension log, provided by our contractors shows that 2 signs were erected on 8/6/15, 1 day before the suspension became live. Therefore the Council contends that the signs were in place a sufficient period of time for residents/visitors to be aware of the restrictions in place.
 In summary to your appeal, as the vehicle was parked in contravention of the parking restrictions in place your appeal has not been successful on this occasion.
 If you would like further details on how the Council considers appeals please visit
http://www.adur-worthing.gov.uk/parking/pa...ts/managing-on- street-parking/ . Where full details can be found in the Penalty Charge Notice Case Manual and the Civil Parking Enforcement Policy Manual.
For payment you have the following options:
 Via an automated telephone line with a credit card on 0845 680 0189 and choose option 1 for Worthing & option 1 for payments
 By sending a postal order payable to Worthing Borough Council and send it to Notice Processing, PO Box 198, Lowton Way, Hellaby, Sheffield, S98 1LU.
 By paying in person with cash, cheque or debit/credit card at the Parking Shop at 52 Chapel Road, Worthing BN11 1BE
 Via the internet link on www.adur-worthing.gov.uk - ‘Pay a Parking Ticket’ The amount now payable is £35
Notice Processing, PO Box 198 Lowton Way, Hellaby, Sheffield S98 1LU Telephone 01903 239999 and ask for Parking Services

Please note that the discounted charge of £35 will no longer be available after 14 days from the service of this letter and the charge will return to the original £70 if payment is not made in time.
Please quote your PCN reference and your vehicle registration number.
If no payment is received after 28 days from the service of this letter, a Notice to Owner (NTO) will be sent to the owner / keeper of the vehicle as registered with the DVLA. Please note that this Notice will not be sent to the driver. If you are the driver but not the owner, and you still wish to make formal representations, you are advised to contact the owner who can respond to the Notice accordingly.
If this Council rejects the representations to the NTO, a Notice of Rejection will be sent with details of the appeal procedure. You cannot appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal until the NTO has been issued and formal representations rejected.
Yours sincerely
Siobhan Thomas Appeals Officer

In turn the motorist must comply with such restrictions that are reasonably brought to their notice.

This is what I want to appeal on, how it 24 hours at 2m high sign 'reasonable'


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scarahj
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 17:15
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IS this enough information for you to be able to suggest help?
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 19:22
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Did you take a photo of the sign or can you get one from the Council's website for your case?

Mick
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Incandescent
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 21:05
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Essentially you say there were no signs a day before, they say there were. The only way you'll get a decision either way is to take them to adjudication. If this is a London PCN that is PATAS, and you'll have to wait for the Notice to Owner, (NtO), appeal again, probably get rejected, then register your appeal at PATAS. They are legally obliged to tell you how to do this if they reject an appeal against a NtO. You lose the discount option if you do this, but the only sum at risk after that is the PCN penalty and no more.
Looking at your transcription of the rejection, they are being disingenuous in not stating when those suspension signs were put up. They have a legal duty to put up signs well in advance of the suspension start date, so there should have been signs when you parked-up. They will have an audit trail of the suspension request from the BBC and if you get to PATAS they'll have to produce it, they can't just bluff their way.

If you have no scanner, take a photo using your mobile phone and post that using the instructions on the forum; most people seem to manage it.

No GSV reference ?? Where is Ann Street ?

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 21:08
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Mr Mustard
post Tue, 16 Jun 2015 - 22:59
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The Traffic Regulation Order needs to be checked to see the reasons for which parking can be suspended and whether it includes for filming.

If you have a permit and can leave you car there unused for weeks on end then a 1 day notice period is plainly inadequate, you could easily be away on holiday or working away or sick or anything. You don't have to go and look at your car every day.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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bama
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 07:24
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pics of the signs would help.
IF its a non-residents bay there is no duty to check suspensions according to the Judicial Review of Humphreys
Neutral Citation Number: [2015] EWHC 713 (Admin) CO/1069/2014


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 07:59
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QUOTE
The obligation upon the Council is to mark and sign those restrictions it wishes to enforce. In turn the motorist must comply with such restrictions that are reasonably brought to their notice. Common sense dictates that someone can only comply with something of which they have been made aware or ought to have known of had a reasonable enquiry been made.


They accept that signs must be reasonably placed. Including time if we read further where they say that they believed that you had reasonable time.
I note they do not say what time the signs were erected on the day, I suspect because this was well after you parked on that day.
An adjudicator would not, IMO, find it an unreasonable rejection had your car been left unchecked for two or three days but is a few hours unreasonable?
After all, many people park cars overnight and never check until they go out to work. There is no reason for a permit holder who parked, checked signs as they must, to rush out at hourly intervals "just in case"
And every expectation that having lawfully parked they would remain that way for a day at least.

The case Bama highlighted is useful even if a permit is in play. In that case it would depend solely on permit T&Cs and what they say about checking signs when parked (As opposed to when parking)

It would not be beyond the council's remit IMO, if when they places short notice suspension signs with lawfully parked vehicles displaying permits in the firing line, to do the right thing and phone the permit holders, asking them to move the vehicle. After all, permit holders are paying healthy chunks of money into council coffers for the privilege of reserved parking. It's called customer service.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 09:05
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+1

But we still don't know where this took place or what council. Clearly you did see the signs when you went to your car, and they were 2 metres above the road. This is about right, I can't see a complaint here, in fact many people complain they are too low and were obscured by vehicles.

So, further advice needs more from you.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 09:07
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DD, interesting case law which I recommend spaceman reads in respect of the absolute need under the act and common law for a 'decision maker' to make clear their reasons for reaching their decision. This decision also makes clear the point that a litigant cannot claim costs for loss of earnings in pursuing their own case.

I do not read into this decision anything of use to the OP in this thread as regards signs. The judge did not agree with the authority's view that a motorist is not expected to check on signs when they park, she observed the contradiction in the authority's position in that they acknowledged this first and then acted contrary to their understanding. In as much as the judge referred to this issue, IMO this was in respect of a motorist's responsibility after the event, but this did not extend to a view that if the restriction is altered after parking this automatically exempts the motorist. The review was of the adjudicator's (decision maker, DM) decision, not the authority's, although part of the judge's decision was based on the DM not taking into account all the issues which arose from the authority's decision and evidence.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 18:37
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DancingDad
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 09:27
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Take your point HCA
And this case seems similar.
The Authority (Sheffield BTW for Incandescent) acknowledge that there must be a reasonable time allowed for motorists to check signs that may have changed the restrictions "after the event"
But deny that they are being unreasonable in rejecting as they believe sufficient time had passed.

This to me is the crux of the actual contravention.
When, exactly was the suspension signed? Not just date but time?
Is time between then and PCN service reasonable to expect a permit holder to check?
What, if anything does the permit T&Cs say about checking parking for suspensions?
What is council's policy towards "emergency" (stretching for a film spot) suspensions?
What is council's policy that defines notice that should be given for suspensions?
What does the traffic order say in terms of notice, short notice and emergency suspensions?

It all comes down to what is reasonable to enforce and what isn't.
And possibly what is unlawful. ie, is filming a good enough reason to suspend a parking bay with little notice.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 11:23
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Going back to Mr Mustard's critical point regarding the scope the Council has to suspend parking places---- it appears as if the Order doesn't extend to filming activity unless there is a catch-all phrase.

I believe the principal Order to be WEST SUSSEX COUNTY COUNCIL (WORTHING) (PARKING PLACES AND TRAFFIC REGULATION)(CONSOLIDATION) ORDER 2007.

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/files/WU02.pdf

That Order indicates:-

9.1 Any person duly authorised by the issuing authority may suspend the use of any part of a parking place
whenever he considers such suspension is necessary;-
(a) for facilitating the movement of traffic or promoting its safety, or
(b) for facilitating any building operation, demolition or excavation in or adjacent to any part or the whole of a
parking place, or
© for maintaining, improving or reconstructing any part or the whole of a parking place or any part of the
adjacent highway, or
(d) for laying, erecting, altering, removing or repairing any sewer pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas,
water, electricity or telecommunications, or
(e) for placing maintenance or removal of any traffic sign in or adjacent to a parking place, or
(f) for the convenience of occupiers of premises adjacent to a parking place to facilitate the removal or
delivery of furniture from or to those premises, or
(g) for the convenience of occupiers of premises adjacent to a parking place on the occasion of weddings or
funerals or on other special occasions, or
(h) if due to a public procession, rejoicing or illumination or when the streets are thronged or liable to be
obstructed.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 11:36
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I assume (g) would be the catchall, special occasions.
But certainly worth asking council to state which part of which Traffic Order that they rely on to suspend parking places at short notice.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 11:37
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kommando
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 11:44
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But (g) is also specific that it relates only to occupiers, so unless the BBC have premises on the road then no permission should have been granted.
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bama
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 18:34
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BBC filming is not a special occasion


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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scarahj
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 21:46
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I have been trying to drag/cut and paste/copy all the images for ages and no joy. I don't have the software mentioned to get images over

Any other options? FB perhaps?









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scarahj
post Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 22:23
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 10:05) *
+1

But we still don't know where this took place or what council. Clearly you did see the signs when you went to your car, and they were 2 metres above the road. This is about right, I can't see a complaint here, in fact many people complain they are too low and were obscured by vehicles.

So, further advice needs more from you.



I looked for the signs straight after seeing the ticket and hand written note on my windscreen.

This took place in Worthing West Sussex
this road is a parking zone and I am a permit holder and I had parked fully in a bay to be clear and in my zone and at the time of parking, no signs up.

I already pay to even be able to park in my street and I can not see that it is legal to uphold a ticket when I was clear on that in my letter to contest this PCN

This post has been edited by scarahj: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 - 22:24
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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 18 Jun 2015 - 06:10
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Call me pedantic (true!) but if parking is suspended why are BBC vehicles allowed to park? Surely parking has merely been especially reserved which the TMO does not allow for? (All depends what an adjudicator thinks of the person sitting in front of him/her as to whether they accept or scoff at that argument)


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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