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help with nto please
pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:19
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hi guys.

I`m filling my nto for parking in a disabled bay. I genuinely didn`t think that i was in a disabled bay and the road markings are a bit confusing. Judging by the pictures can anyone be of any help. I am contesting it cos they are confusing but just wondered what other peoples thought were or ideas. thanks
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post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:19
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Incandescent
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:40
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As usual post the PCN, all sides, with PCN Number and car details blanked out. Leave everything else in. A GSV reference would be better, if it is up-to-date. There is no road marking, and no sign visible, but I see the end of double-yellow lines in the 3rd photo, with the black car clear of them. If it is a disabled bay, there should be a sign next to it.
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:48
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i have a couple more pictures which will help. There is a sign on the street. I will try and get the rest uploaded.

picture
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 12:33
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Scarborough:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.2824372,-...#33;6m1!1e1

The GSV shows 3 disabled bays stretching from outside the Bank to the edge of the crossover entrance to the side of Henry Dell's.

All depends what the sign says; the disabled marking can be omitted but the bays must be properly delineated (need double traverse lines at each end of the bays).

As per Incandescent, need to see the docs.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 12:46
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Incandescent
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 12:57
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Bad bay markings, but your last photo has what looks like a sign for disabled parking, plus a marking on the carriageway. However, zooming the picture doesn't show the text on the sign. Until the sign is seen final advice cannot be give, but I have to say you look bang-to-rights, frankly.
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 13:18
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nto pictures


sign has the P sign at the top left then to the right of it ...says,,,disabled badge holders only.

the below the P there is the picture of a whelchair...beside that 3 hours

and text at the bottom says no return within 1 hour.

hope thats of a bit help

I would say it is prob the correct sign.?

can I not say something about the poor road markings?? and are the road markings correct?
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DancingDad
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:19
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Looks like signs etc look okay
Not checked all of nto but contravention right.
Tell us some more details?
Was a pcn stuck on the motor?
How long were you stopped?
Any details may help
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:25
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yes the ticket was on the windscreen when we got back to the car. We were prob only away for about 20 mins as we went to the shops but they weren`t open yet as it was sunday morning. I think my only arguement may be about the poor road markings. I did honestly think it was just a normal parking bay and not part of the disabled bay.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:46
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Did you challenge the PCN?
If so how and what reply ?
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:57
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i sent several emails challenging it. replies are basically whats below.









I refer to your enquiry regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.

The Notice was issued because your vehicle was parked in a bay reserved for disabled badge holders only. The bay is signposted and marked in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The sign plate and disabled road marking are adjacent to the bay, therefore the disabled badge holders only restriction is in force until the end of bay marking which was behind your vehicle.

Notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer at the time of the Penalty Charge Notice was issued show that a disabled badge was not displayed.

It is the motorist's responsibility to ensure they have adhered to the regulations that are in place before they leave their vehicle.

I note your comments that you were only parked for around 10 minutes, but would advise you that a vehicle is not permitted to use a disabled bay for any purpose unless displaying a valid disabled persons badge.

In view of this, I have decided not to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and your payment of £35.00 should be sent to Parking Services, Town Hall, St Nicholas Street, Scarborough, YO11 2HG within 14 days. Your cheque or postal order should be made payable to 'Scarborough Borough Council'. Alternatively, you may pay by debit or credit card (with the exception of American Express) over the telephone, by ringing 0800 0830493 or 01723 232323 (Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday 8.30am to 5.00 pm and Wednesday 9.30am to 5pm) or online at www.scarborough.gov.uk/pcn at any time. Any photographs relating to your case can also be viewed on the above website. Please do not pay the PCN if you intend to pursue the challenge further as your case will then be closed.

If payment is not received as detailed, I shall assume that you wish to pursue the matter and shall arrange for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle so that formal representations may be made. Should these be rejected, the registered keeper of the vehicle will then be afforded the opportunity to appeal to the Parking Adjudicator.

I should point out that, should you decide to take this course of action, after the discount period has expired, you will forfeit the right to pay the Penalty Charge at the lower rate and the full charge of £70.00 will be due.

If you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle e.g. the vehicle is a company or lease/hire vehicle, or being used with the owner's consent, I suggest you advise the keeper that a Notice to Owner will be issued.


Yours sincerely

Levi Dargue









in the first paragraph she says the end of the bay is behind my vehicle....do the road markings say that???

This post has been edited by pottsygsxr: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:58
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qafqa
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 14:59
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A copy of both sides of the PCN may help.
the disabled marking can be omitted but the bays must be properly delineated (need double traverse lines at each end of the bays).
Can you respond to this comment by Mad Mick V.
StreetView (2008) showed a broken white line adjacent to the double-yellows, it isn't shown in the photograph of the black car.*
If it supports your case include a comment about how the dark tarmac/bitumen gives the impression that it is used to delineate the disabled parking place.

The text of the allegation is incomplete on the NTO and the
penalty charge is overprinted, for more details about the
problem search PePiPoo for Wandsworth overprinted.

*Just read your post above, is the part in bold text correct.
therefore the disabled badge holders only restriction is in force until the end of bay marking which was behind your vehicle.

Just read your post above - again.
in the first paragraph she says the end of the bay is behind my vehicle....do the road markings say that???
What road markings, it's looking good for you, invisible
road markings are unlikely to be considered enforceable
by an adjudicator.

Were the photographs of the black Ford taken when the PCN
was issued?

This post has been edited by qafqa: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:14
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:14
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i have mentioned in my letter i`m going to send that the new road markings give you the impression that that particular part is the bay. i`ll check if i have uploaded the photo of just behind the car....Unfortunately i dont have any pics of futher back. In front of the white vehicle vehicle are the road markings correct there??



....if you look in the last picture in my first post ( with buggy in) those are the markings behind my car...are these ok??

This post has been edited by pottsygsxr: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:18
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DancingDad
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:40
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The end of bay markings as in your photos leave a lot to be desired.
It can be inferred from the Double Yellows but so can the end being the "new" tarmac and that the disabled legend on the road seems more adjacent to that.

Not the strongest argument IMO but not weak either, coupled with credibility in front of an adjudicator when you say, as you have here, that you genuinely did not know it was a disabled bay.
And you may as well take it forward to an adjudicator, there is no extra cost in doing so and nothing to lose.
But first we need to challenge the NTO
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:52
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everyones help is very much appreciated. thank you very much. Is it just a case of writing a letter and saying that the road markings are not very clear and i genuinely thought it wasn`t a disabled bay.? Is there anything specific i should/should not say?

...oh and i live miles away from where it happened , do i then have to travel down there to see the adjudicator ?


This post has been edited by pottsygsxr: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 15:54
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DancingDad
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 16:10
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Draft up a letter in your words, post it up and we can tune it, this sort of case, your words will add credibility.

Adjudicator. In this case will be TPT, Traffic Penalty Tribunal. They hold hearings across the country in all major cities and many towns
List of venues, you can decide which one suits you best.
http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/d.../hearing_venues
Some way off yet but will do no harm to browse their site and get some idea how it happens.
Hearings are relatively informal and the adjudicators (TPT) usually polite and human, can be quite helpful as well.
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qafqa
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 16:11
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If you want to check the official guidance for lines and signs
here are links to the DfT manuals.
There is a recommended minimum width for the bay and advice
about repeating the Disabled legend on the road.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-03.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...-chapter-05.pdf

This post has been edited by qafqa: Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 16:19
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 16:19
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i found this the other day or is this not really relevant? It will take me a bit to type out what i`ve written as i`ve don it by hand.
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 16:33
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here is a rough copy of what i`ll send...just ignore the speling mistakes etc.

Dear sir/madam

I am writing to you to dispute the parking ticket I received and to ask you to please cancel it. I feel it is very unfair and cannot be properly enforced.

I believe that there cannot be a CPZ because the road markinhgs are not clear enough and are misleading. By law all road markings must meet all the requirements of prescribed traffic markings for a CPZ. The road markings do not meer such requirements. Road markings should be clear and of a minimum size/lenght. Restrictions need to be made clear through appropriate signs and road markings. The bay is not clearly enough defined and the new road markings are confusing and make you think that the part where the white vehicle is parked, is the bay. ALso the positioning of the sign on the pole is right beside this new marked bay also giving you the idea that this bit is the bay.

It was sunday morning and there were lots of spaces available. We had stopped there to go to wh smiths to buy some books for my daughter. I didn`t kniow that the shops were closed. We were probably only there for abpout 10 mins. The reason I parked there was because we thought it was a normal parking space otherwise i would have parkedsomewhere else. I even asked my partner if she thought it was ok to park there and she also thoght it was a normal parking space. We then went to peasholm park where i managed to ask a parking attendant what he thought and he also thought that the road markings were confusing and unclear what was reqwuired of the mototrist. We are not from the area and were only there on hiiday, nor are we parking attendants. We find it very unfair that we have been given a fine. We would ask that you please cancel this fine.
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pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 17:23
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what do you mean by this also..

The text of the allegation is incomplete on the NTO and the
penalty charge is overprinted, for more details about the
problem search PePiPoo for Wandsworth overprinted.


Is it any grounds to argue against?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 18:09
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GSV is neither here nor there, it's not the authority's evidence.

Pl post their evidence. Not your pics at this stage, just theirs. For example, we've not seen their pic of the sign, all we've got is your narrative.

When we can see which pics are contemporaneous and therefore are able to discard those which are not I suspect matters will be clearer.

GSV is neither here nor there, it's not the authority's evidence.

Pl post their evidence. Not your pics at this stage, just theirs. For example, we've not seen their pic of the sign, all we've got is your narrative.

When we can see which pics are contemporaneous and therefore are able to discard those which are not I suspect matters will be clearer.
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