NIP "issue date" clarification |
NIP "issue date" clarification |
Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 18:49
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,210 |
Hi
We are currently in dispute with Lincolnshire Police's Central Ticket Office over the NIP 14 day rule. They sent an NIP dated 21 May which duly arrived here a day or so later. The car is registered to my son so the NIP was in his name even though i was the driver at the time of the alleged speeding (My gran had been given 24 hours to live and i did indeed flash a camera racing from London to Edinburgh to arrive half an hour before her passing but that's by the by for the moment ) My son lives with me and this is not about the time the registered keeper took to inform them about me but merely the amount of time they took to issue that initial NIP to him as the registered keeper in the first place here at the house we both live and where the car is registered. They have since re-issued a new NIP to me in my name but we're disputing the initial timing of the initial NIP . The problem is that the alleged offence happened back on the 22nd of April which was 29 days prior to the date written on the NIP. We wrote back to the CTO pointing this fact out and quoting the relevant precedents r.e the 14 day rule but they just wrote back saying everything was done within the 14 days as the NIP was apparently issued on the 2nd of May and not the date actually written on the NIP, which is the 21st May. So is the date actually written on the NIP the "issue date"? There is no mention of the 2nd of May anywhere else on the NIP. If we are right and the date on the NIP has to be the issue date do we have a leg to stand on fighting against the fact that the initial NIP came to this house 29 days after the alleged offence? tia This post has been edited by willywallace: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 18:50 |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 18:49
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 19:11
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 17 Jan 2013 Member No.: 59,445 |
How long has your son owned the vehicle? Is he in possession of the log book?
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 20:20
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
What is the DOC REF DATE on the V5?
So just to clarify, your son has replied to his (possibly) late NIP naming you. You have now received your own S.172 in your name. Have you replied naming yourself? -------------------- |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 20:26
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,261 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
It is highly unlikely they issued a first NIP that late so to clarify
1/ he has the logbook (V5C) in his possession with his name and address on it 2/ the details haven't recently been changed due to purchase or moving (last date it was updated will be that DOCREF date) 3/ it's not a hire/lease/company car? We have quite a few people coming on here claiming they are the registered keeper with it registered to their address when that is simply not the case, hence the questions. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 21:45
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,210 |
Thanks for all the replies guys....
@Danger-Mouse.......The car was owned by my son for a good few months prior to the speeding issue but the updated log book in his name never came till about a month prior to the speeding (30/3/2014). I'd actually bought him it to teach him to drive and so put the car in his name to give him that feeling of ownership etc hence the logbook is indeed in his name and in his possession now....which is here at the house. @peterguk...Yes my son replied (I drafted the letter for him ) to the initial NIP both disputing the time-scale but at the same time I thought he should name me so we did fill out that initial NIP with my details. In the replies ( i can post relevant NIP & our replies below if i can suss out how to) from their CTO they seem to be slightly confused themselves and seem to suggest we're disputing times involved regarding him informing me and the second NIP, which is not the case. All we're disputing is the 29 days from date of offence to date on that very first NIP to him as registered keeper. The logbook REF date is the 30/03/2014 @The Rookie....as unlikely as it sounds it was 29 days from date of speeding offence to the date on the NIP. It's not a hire lease car but just a cheap second hand car i bought to teach the lad to drive but a car which i used to rush to Edinburgh a couple of months after i bought him it. Nothing had changed during the relevant time period and it is not a hire car etc but just a cheap second hand Golf i bought the lad. Just trying to upload images guys......Attachment Editor not liking my 1.5MB images for some reason . Thanks for time and patience guys. This post has been edited by willywallace: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 22:34 |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 22:27
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,261 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Take that down ASAP, not wise identifying your case so readily.
Just to be clear, that is the DOCREF date and not the date when the keeper ship was changed? The DOCREF will be later. The Police clearly think they sent an earlier NIP so you need to be 100% sure on this. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 22:46
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,210 |
Take that down ASAP, not wise identifying your case so readily. Just to be clear, that is the DOCREF date and not the date when the keeper ship was changed? The DOCREF will be later. The Police clearly think they sent an earlier NIP so you need to be 100% sure on this. Ahhh. Thought maybe just removing names and such would suffice. Are you meaning the DOCREF as in the date on his V5 logbook. The DOCREF on V5 is indeed that date i mentioned previosly. It also has "ACQUIRED VEHICLE ON 07/03/2014" below his name on the registered keeper section but either way the logbook was in my sons name well in advance of actual offence and so that's not the issue i shouldn't think. All I'm concerned about is whether that date ON that first NIP is the actual "issue date" and whether that 29 days in question is something i can fight. This would have been simpler if i'd just had the car in my name i suppose but the fact remains that that first NIP never came to my son till the 29th day after the offence. edit:.....just to clarify. There was no earlier NIP. That one i posted an image of sent to my son as the registered keeper was the first and it is dated 21/05/2014. We drafted a reply to it pointing out it was issued 29 days after the alleged offence. The NIP was correct as far as coming to my son as the registered keeper but it had been me who was driving those 29 days earlier. After we returned that first NIP naming me as the driver but insisting that it must be time barred in the first instance due to the 14 day rule for issuing to the registered keeper. We sent that first NIP and enclosed letter insisting it was time barred back about a week after it came and then my son subsequently received a reply insisting that that very same NIP was actually issued to him as registered owner on the 02/05/2014, contrary to the date on the NIP. They then said they would carry on with the intended prosecution and contact me.....which they did shortly after with a revised NIP in my name. I wrote back further insisting that the first NIP to my son should surely be time barred to which they wrote back seeming to be slightly confused themselves as to just what we were disputing. Confusion has obviously arisen due to me having been named as the driver but i'm still trying to shout that we aint disputing who is driving but that the initial NIP is dated 29 days after offence......which it is. There is no mention anywhere on that first NIP about the actual issue date being 27 days before the date at the top of the thing...... This post has been edited by willywallace: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 23:08 |
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Wed, 30 Jul 2014 - 22:54
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
OK, first thing to do is to name yourself on your S.172 and return with proof of postage.
Then you have two choices: Either accept the penalty offered or decline and take the matter to court. That will reveal whether an earlier NIP was posted in good time or not. BUT you must return the S.172 in good time regardless. -------------------- |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 00:47
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,581 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
It could be that the first NIP your son received was actually a reminder that no reply had been received to an earlier NIP that had been sent out o 2nd May but your son had not received. First thing anyway is to name yourself as the driver.
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 04:59
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,423 Joined: 15 Apr 2009 From: Winnersh, UK Member No.: 27,840 |
I do find it plausible that this is NOT a reminder NIP since the NIP is dated 29 days after the alleged incident
Assuming a NIP is generated and posted on the date of the incident 22nd April, it would be deemed to have been served on the OP on 24th April and the OP would have until 23:59 21st May to respond. Therefore it seems a bit strange that the reminder is being generated within the period allowed for a valid S172 response Am I missing something here? |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 05:16
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 673 Joined: 8 Apr 2005 From: New Zealand Member No.: 2,714 |
Looks like a cock up to me - I also can't see how a reminder would be sent before the initial reply had to be back.
-------------------- jaykay in NZ
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 05:58
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,261 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
they just wrote back saying everything was done within the 14 days as the NIP was apparently issued on the 2nd of May and not the date actually written on the NIP, which is the 21st May. I doubt this is made up, some areas issue a copy as a reminder, others issue a new document with a new date. Unless you know what that area does, you can't always tell if it's a reminder or not and the original sent date. The question is where was this NIP sent, you or some other details they got. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 08:49
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 6 Aug 2008 Member No.: 21,656 |
Looks like a cock up to me - I also can't see how a reminder would be sent before the initial reply had to be back. A few years back when I had a NIP (Staffordshire Police) they sent a reminder 21 days after the initial NIP so it can (or did) happen. As far as I remember though it was clearly labelled as a reminder. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 09:14
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,529 Joined: 5 May 2011 From: UK Member No.: 46,399 |
The date on your son's nip does not prove it was the date posted. The police will no doubt have a robust administration system which will prove the original nip was created on the 2nd and the other date is a typo.
You would still have a defence if you could convince a court it arrived at you outside the 14 day period. It is the arrival date which is critical. However you will have to now accept that the police say the 1st notice was issued promptly and they are not going green to drop this. So you have 2 choices. Accept whatever offer they give you or fight this in court. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 10:31
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,210 |
Thanks again for the input guys.
To be honest i don't even mind IF i do have to accept the fact that I was speeding at the time in question but that very first NIP came to my son here at the correct address 29 days after the offence.......THAT's thee only reason I'm still putting time into it. That NIP i posted the image of was thee very first correspondence of any sort to come and it is certainly not a reminder but the very first thing to come through our door. If the CTO are insisting that the initial NIP was issued on the 2nd of May and not the 21st of May then what were they doing with it for the other 19 days? If it were just a typo then surely that NIP would have came a few days after the 2nd and it would have been obvious the 21(st) written upon it should have just been a 2(nd) but it came through our door a month later.....a couple of days after the date written......the potential 21(st) typo. I know for sure there is 29 days between the offence and the date written on that first NIP (30 or 31 days before it actually arrived) but i just wasn't sure if i myself could legally fight this even though the initial late NIP was late to my son.........The revised NIP in my name did come in time and again there is no dispute about who was driving or how long my own NIP came etc. The only question really was can i myself wriggle out of it as the driver on the basis that the initial NIP to the registered keeper took 29 days to get to him here at the house we both live and where the car is registered in his name. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 10:42
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,529 Joined: 5 May 2011 From: UK Member No.: 46,399 |
The relevant case is Gidden v CC Humberside. The problem is proving when the NIP arrived. If they can prove one was sent on the 2nd then you will face the burden of rebutting the presumption it arrived 2 working days after posting. The date on it helps but they can presumably prove it, or an original one, was sent to arrive in time.
Be under no illusion, if you want to wriggle out of this it can be expensive and time consuming. Peter Gidden lost in the magistrates and at crown even with a quality professional witness to help him. This post has been edited by sgtdixie: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 12:09 |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 11:00
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,585 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
The relevant case is Gidden v CC Humberside. Who posts as peterguk - already contributing to this thread. See the link in his signature. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 11:09
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Member No.: 72,210 |
The relevant case is Gidden v CC Humberside. The problem is proving when the NIP arrived. If they can prove one was sent on the 2nd then you will face the burden of rebutting the presumption it arrived 2 working days after posting. The date on it helps but they can presumably prove it, or an original one, was sent to arrive in time. Be under no illusion, if you want to wriggle out of this it can be expensive and time consuming. Peter Gabriel lost in the magistrates and at crown even with a quality professional witness to help him. That's exactly the precedent i quoted in the initial reply that was sent back on behalf of my boy. IF i do opt for going to court i won't be hiring any expensive professionals and am more than happy to defend myself. Wouldn't be the first time defending myself. The only thing putting me off is the location and getting there on public transport from London. Oddly i actually flashed two different cameras in two different locations that horrid week my Gran passed away and the other NIP took 22 days to come. I made the same argument with that one and we've never heard a peep back about it........and that was same situation of me having been driver but initial NIP coming to my son as registered keeper too late. Driving for over 20 years (on & off last couple of years) and that week was the first time i've ever had any speeding camera's flash me. ...2 within 24 hours. : \ I have no doubts about the 29 days as it's there in black & white. The only thing i wasn't sure about was if i could argue the 14 day rule even though it was my son's initial NIP that should be time barred on that basis. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 11:15
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 29 Nov 2013 Member No.: 67,083 |
I have no doubts about the 29 days as it's there in black & white. The only thing i wasn't sure about was if i could argue the 14 day rule even though it was my son's initial NIP that should be time barred on that basis. It is only the first NIP (such as the one in your son's name) that has to be served within a 14 day time limit. Any subsequent NIP (such as the one sent in your name) has no time limits at all, so the initial NIP being outside the time limit is always what is contested. |
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Thu, 31 Jul 2014 - 11:44
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,581 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
...........That NIP i posted the image of was thee very first correspondence of any sort to come and it is certainly not a reminder but the very first thing to come through our door. The first NIP may not have been delivered, so you cannot actually tell if it is meant as a reminder or not. It is just very unlikely that the first NIP was issued so late, without a change of car or address, or the wrong address used. You say none of that is possible, so the most likely thing is that what your son received first was a reminder of some sort. The only way to find out is to take it to court, but the risk is that if there was an original NIP your son did not receive which can be proved to be posted the court will accept that was issued within 14 days as the CTO claim. -------------------- |
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