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Quick Question - Bought ticket, parked in wrong bay meters away from machine- £260 later - worth contesting?
mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 10:24
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Hi All,

it's been a while since I was last on here - where thanks to your help I successfully appealed a PCN for parking over a dropped curb.

Anyway, the long and short of it is:

I parked somewhere in London near where I saw a ticket machine. I bought a ticket then returned an hour later to a towed away car.

It turns out that next to the ticket parking bays were a "residents only" bay - this is what the Council pointed out when they denied my appeal.

Do you think its worth taking to arbritration or do I have 0 chance?

Best

Luke

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post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 10:24
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angrybish
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 10:33
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Please post up all docs you have front and back & blank out personal details. Only then the experts will be able to advise.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:32
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No brainer appealing a tow as you cannot ever pay any more then you already have. And could get a refund.
But post up all documents, pictures and location (streetview) blanked of personal details but leave in times location etc
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:48
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image 1 - roughly where i was parked


hi sorry - the other images are too big to upload - how do i downsize them?

Image 2 - my parking ticket

This post has been edited by mrenglishman: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:43
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DancingDad
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:50
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Host them on an external free picture host site then link back here
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:51
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http://ul.to/rlbvgbxr - please find attached!
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Enceladus
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:53
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:50) *
Host them on an external free picture host site then link back here

And please don't try to manipulate the image size. Just upload the raw images to the hosting site and then copy and paste the IMG links into your posts on here. The forum software will take care of any sizing issues.
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 11:59
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Parking - Streetview!

** Apologies didn't realise it dual print screened.

So the question I have to ask is - Would it be worth me taking it to arbitration on the grounds that my buying of the ticket from a machine a couple of metres away is indicative of my intention to park in the correct bay. Or is it a waste of time with it been a strict liability offence (i.e mens rea irrelevant)

What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by mrenglishman: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:02
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Enceladus
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:02
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A zip file doesn't really cut it, there are too many malware concerns. A lot if folks simply won't download it. Create a free basic account on somewhere like http://tinypic.com. Upload the photos / scans etc and then copy and paste the IMG links provided into your posts on here.

Please post up the text that you sent to the Council and a scan of the Council response to you. The PCN suggests you had no P&D voucher on display?
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:11
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http://tinypic.com/r/3599y6o/8 (my ticket)

http://tinypic.com/r/22goaq/8

http://tinypic.com/r/22goaq/8

http://tinypic.com/r/m7gyz9/8

http://tinypic.com/r/nfmpw3/8 (payment receipt)

This was my email to them:

Dear Kensington and Chelsea Council,



I write in relation to the following:



PCN Number: KE23325188

Date of Contravention : 09/06/2014

Time of Contravention: 10:40



Today was my first time ever parking in London and I had been warned that London was renowned for its parking tickets and ticket wardens. There is therefore a certain level of irony to this email.



I needed to park this morning around the Ladbroke Grove area and after several minutes of driving around I managed to find some parking - or rather pay and display bays that weren't the usual "Residents only." This was evidenced by a clear sign next to the bay saying "P - Pay at Meter" and the fact the actual meter was only a couple of metres away (please see Image 1) Now as I have already said, I was very nervous about the whole parking thing so doubly made sure that I wasn't in a resident's only bay or that there weren't any silly time restrictions (in this case it was 2 hours maximum which was fine)



I purchased a ticket at 10:26 (please see Image 2) and this expired at 12.12. I placed it on the passenger and street side dashboard so it would be visible to the many parking wardens who would be walking by. My car was pounced on not even 9 minutes later and long story short I paid £265 to have it released from the pound.



The contravention was a 12T which I read was not for clearly displaying/having a valid parking ticket.



Now as a teacher, I was already late for my morning class and after having to walk the several miles to collect my car (my phone battery had also ran out also at this point) my afternoon classes were also cancelled. So a costly and disastrous day!





What really confounds me though, and the reason for this appeal is that the ticket was displayed and it was valid. Admittedly, I didn't know that the dash board meant the drivers dash board and I thought getting back into my car during busy traffic was a needless risk, especially when wardens would be walking past the passenger side!



I did make a point of parking in the right bay, putting the right money in and displaying a ticket. In terms of dishonesty there is no evidence that I wanted to defraud the council. The fact I had bought a valid ticket, even if you say it wasn't at the right side is still indicative of my intention to pay and display properly.



I understand that legally there are certain categories this appeal might fall into, and I would contest there are a few, but also I understand there exists the notion that each parking ticket appeal is considered on the individual circumstances. In this case, I would say there are strong mitigating and legal factors why this appeal should be allowed.



There are many examples of appeals been allowed during arbitration where a valid parking ticket has fallen onto the floor of the car, or even where the correct parking ticket was displayed for the wrong bay.



I feel in the circumstances as set out above I would also fall into this bracket. I know the vast majority of PCN's just get paid (especially by the very wealthy in this area) but I am just a poor visitor to the area with entirely honest and lawful intentions.



I really hope you can allow this appeal and refund the amount paid.



Best wishes,



Luke Jones

This post has been edited by mrenglishman: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:06
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DancingDad
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:24
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Got the rejection letter pls.

Seems you had paid and displayed but some issue with where the P&D ticket was displayed ???
What was the issue and how did you find out about it before challenging to council ?

This may be critical, councils can always apply discretion even for a cast iron contravention (seldom seem to) but adjudicators can't.
So we need to explore all details to see how best to frame an appeal to adjudication.
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:31
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The rejection letter is at my old house so have asked for a copy to be resent to my new one.

From memory, the council basically said you were in a residents only bay when you shouldn't have been - regardless of whether your ticket was visible or not as it wasn't valid for the residents bay I was parked in - it was valid for the bays a couple of metres up (see street view labels)





I think I may just have to bite the bullet with this one and put it down to inexperience of residents parking in London!

(unless any of you pros can advise a different course!)
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DancingDad
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:43
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Difficult to advise until we get the full story.
You seem to be saying that you were in a P&D bay and had paid and displayed.
Council seem to be saying that that you were in a resident's bay

Have you any of the council photos? They will show which fact is correct.

If council are right, then procedural errors may be only options to argue on. And without paperwork, they will be difficult to establish.
The rejection letter should also have advised that next course of appeal is to adjudication and included the forms to do so.
Have you got them ??

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:44
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hcandersen
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:44
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The PCN, which is part of the authority's evidence, is that a P&D was displayed, so why are you setting the non-display hare running as it can only confuse?
According to the authority, you were in a 'permit' bay, because this is what it states in their evidence i.e. the PCN. In fact, it's given twice, once in plain English, the other by the use of the suffix 'T'.
Either you were in a resident's only bay (which is the only basis for this contravention in the circumstances of your case) or you weren't. So can we please focus on where your car was and the road markings. In this respect it is common practice for an authority to take photos of your car in situ, so please get them (NB. not personal after the fact snapshots of where your car nearly was or google maps with no car, but the authority's evidence as to exactly where you were).

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 12:45
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 13:00
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thanks all will post up when received!
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angrybish
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 13:28
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Am no expert but was wondering if there are potential issues surrounding the wording on PCN?
PCN states:"If the penalty charge notice is not paid before the end of the..."
Should it not be along lines of "the PCN must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days..." ??
I could be wrong there but hopefully the Pros will confirm..

This post has been edited by angrybish: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 13:38
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Enceladus
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 14:06
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You posted up a photo in post #4 above.
Is your vehicle the black van or is it the silver hatchback?

PS. As this is a PCN & removal it's a no brainer to challenge all the way to adjudication. You have £260 to gain and nothing further to loose.
Please post up scans of everything you received at the pound, excepting the credit/debit card payment voucher.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 14:13
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mrenglishman
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 14:53
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Here is a link to download their letter (PDF)

http://uploaded.net/file/lum464kz

Side 1 - http://tinypic.com/r/modo4/8

side 2 - http://tinypic.com/r/2evx2q9/8
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DancingDad
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 17:25
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Ok,they are adamant that you were in resident's bay and have photos...but nothing on sign
Ladbroke Grove is right long.
Can you identify where you were on streetlink and link it back to us ??
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Wed, 9 Jul 2014 - 17:37
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Am I correct in understanding that there is a pay & display bay next to a permit bay? If so then where the two bays meet the DfT recommends that a council place a traffic sign at this juncture with arrows pointing in the direction of each respective restriction. Do the bays meet and if so is there such a sign placed?
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