PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Who put the lights out-speeding question, Threads merged
roythebus
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 07:35
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,490
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



In my area the county council in its wisdom has turned a lot of street lights out to help save the planet....

One road runs along the coast, houses on one side for about 3 miles, sea on the other side so not "really" much of a danger to anyone. Going from west to east, the road goes from NSL into a 40, with "dark" street lights and 40 repeaters. Then into a 30, "dark" street lights, non-illuminated termination sign, also non-reflectorised afaik. After about 2 miles of this darkness with no 30 repeaters, you have to turn left into the "inhabited" part of the area where the street lights are still on. About 3/4 mile along that road is one of our money-making friends, the speed camera.

The question is, is the 30 limit enforceable along that road as you "may" have driven from what is technically a NSL/unenforceable 30 area into a 30 area with no termination signs?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 07:35
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Bluedart
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 07:50
Post #2


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 5,243
Joined: 9 Jul 2004
From: Devon
Member No.: 1,388



QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 07:35) *
In my area the county council in its wisdom has turned a lot of street lights out to help save the planet....

One road runs along the coast, houses on one side for about 3 miles, sea on the other side so not "really" much of a danger to anyone. Going from west to east, the road goes from NSL into a 40, with "dark" street lights and 40 repeaters. Then into a 30, "dark" street lights, non-illuminated termination sign, also non-reflectorised afaik. After about 2 miles of this darkness with no 30 repeaters, you have to turn left into the "inhabited" part of the area where the street lights are still on. About 3/4 mile along that road is one of our money-making friends, the speed camera.

The question is, is the 30 limit enforceable along that road as you "may" have driven from what is technically a NSL/unenforceable 30 area into a 30 area with no termination signs?


I asked that question and got, not a reply but an explanation.
Street lights placed on the highway spaced at about 200 mtrs apart, means that a 30 MPH applies - they do not have to be lit as they are not lit through day light hours. The presence of the street light is enough.
But what about when there is another limit such as a 40 or 50 MPH repeaters are required but you cannot see repeaters, the 30 limit must have been revoked on the restricted road to introduce another limit.
If you cannot see the repeater signs for another limit, then you must assume the limit to be 30 MPH.

Bit sketchy but that is what I got. My argument was then as it is now, if the 30 MPH has been revoked, then the NSL must apply if you cannot see any other limit.


--------------------
Peter
What I'd like to see police/local authorities do is deal with important issues and not these sorts of victimless crimes when society is riddled with problems.

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

'The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.' - Albert Einstein
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 07:57
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,490
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



Street lights must be illuminated for them to be street lights; there's already been some discussion on here when I asked a similar question about the validity of non-illuminated terminal signs a few years ago. TSRGD says they "shall" be illuminated. Street lights not illuminated for about 4 miles, how would any visitor to the area know there were any street lights at all if they can't be seen?

However, the council has painted white lines to show the edge of the road and put reflectors on the telegraph poles or lamp posts as some guide as to where the road is!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gan
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:06
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,678
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Member No.: 27,239



Combine the removal of street-lighting with an increase in cycling
Law of Unintended Consequences

http://www.theaa.com/newsroom/news-2014/st...-accidents.html

Interesting that 54% of those surveyed thought it was a good idea for reducing cost and CO2 emissions
Wonder what the answers to this loaded question would have been if they had been asked about the effects separately
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:16
Post #5


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 8,104
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:57) *
Street lights must be illuminated for them to be street lights; there's already been some discussion on here when I asked a similar question about the validity of non-illuminated terminal signs a few years ago. TSRGD says they "shall" be illuminated.

I don't think that's quite right. From memory terminal speed limit signs only have to be illuminated if they're on a principal road and within 50m of a street lamp. I would also suspect that a system of street lights doesn't have to be lit in order to signify a speed limit; after all they're not lit during the day, and neither does the failure of a lamp or two invalidate the speed limit!


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kanga
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:30
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 139
Joined: 1 Jan 2014
Member No.: 67,686



If I read TSRDG schedule 17 items 10 and 11 correctly, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...chedule/17/made , diagram 670, a terminal sign needs to be lit at night only if (a) it is within 50 metres of a street lamp and (b) that street lamp is lit.

If it isn't illuminated it should be reflectorised. I reckon all newish signs are reflectorised, but they quickly become dirty.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
facade
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:39
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 832
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Member No.: 1,847



QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 09:06) *
Combine the removal of street-lighting with an increase in cycling
Law of Unintended Consequences

http://www.theaa.com/newsroom/news-2014/st...-accidents.html

Interesting that 54% of those surveyed thought it was a good idea for reducing cost and CO2 emissions
Wonder what the answers to this loaded question would have been if they had been asked about the effects separately



I do the AA survey every month (there is a £500 raffle, and I get the chance to influence the results wink.gif )

The actual questions and responses were given in the article:


1. I think this sounds like a good initiative to help cut costs and reduce CO2 emissions:

54% agree (18% strongly, 37% somewhat
Most agree – South West 63%, least agree – London 43%

2. I would be happy for street lights to be turned off between midnight and 5am in my local area:

47% agree (18% strongly, 29% somewhat
Most agree – South West 57% , least agree – London 30%

3. Turning off street lights after midnight will encourage vandalism and bad behaviour:

58% agree (21% strongly, 37% somewhat
Most agree – London 70%, least agree - South West 50%

4. Turning off street lights after midnight will encourage more serious crime, such as burglary:

59% agree (22% strongly, 37% somewhat
Most agree – London 72%, least agree – South West 50%


Obviously it would cut costs, but it doesn't take much wit to see that we will all get burgled even if we are not out to get run over, so we don't want them turned off. (There is usually a spike in burglaries when there is a power cut of any duration)


It is a bit of an odd thing the AA survey though,

"Only 21% of men and 15% of women correctly identified the the national speed limit for lorries on single carriageway roads in the UK."

I remember that question, they didn't specify the size of the lorry, so it was a 50:50 answer. I assumed a 40 tonner, but they could have meant a 7 1/2 tonner....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 10:10
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,178
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .

This post has been edited by StuartBu: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 10:12
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 10:19
Post #9


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 8,104
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 11:10) *
It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .

Yes, but there's a world of difference between that common sense view ("you can't see them") and the legal view ("they're there").


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 11:29
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 44,993
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



Stating that the street lamps are not street lamps if unlit is a leap of faith, until an appeal is taken to a point where it sets a precedence then I don't think the lower courts will hesitate to convict, if it does go to appeal I strongly suspect the court will rule that they are still a system of street lighting whether lit some of the time or even none of the time, its accepted they are street lighting during the day when unlit, so why would it change if they are unlit when it's dark?

QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:57) *
Street lights must be illuminated for them to be street lights

I'm sure you have some proof of that?

QUOTE (roythebus @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 08:57) *
there's already been some discussion on here when I asked a similar question about the validity of non-illuminated terminal signs a few years ago. TSRGD says they "shall" be illuminated.

Which has been explained, you got it back to front, if the lights are lit so should the signs be (trunk road), if they aren't, no need.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BaggieBoy
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 11:31
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,515
Joined: 3 Apr 2006
From: North Hampshire
Member No.: 5,183



QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 11:10) *
It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .

I have a handy little feature on my car called headlights, these help to illuminate things around me...should be made standard me thinks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 12:33
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,178
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 12:31) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 11:10) *
It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .

I have a handy little feature on my car called headlights, these help to illuminate things around me...should be made standard me thinks.


That depends on where the lights are situated ..do your headlights also point upwards ? biggrin.gif Anyway regardless of anything else if street lights are fitted they should be getting used ..That's why they were put there not to give an indication of the speed limit .

This post has been edited by StuartBu: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 12:39
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gan
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 13:33
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,678
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Member No.: 27,239



I had an A40 Farina where one headlamp followed the telephone wires

Might have resulted from stretching of the electrical tape that was attaching it to the papier mache wing
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bluedart
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 17:36
Post #14


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 5,243
Joined: 9 Jul 2004
From: Devon
Member No.: 1,388



QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 10:10) *
It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .


What u drive in the dark for without headlights either full beam or dipped for? If u had them on, you can see what is in front of u, unless I am mistaken.


--------------------
Peter
What I'd like to see police/local authorities do is deal with important issues and not these sorts of victimless crimes when society is riddled with problems.

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

'The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.' - Albert Einstein
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 18:09
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,178
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (Bluedart @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 18:36) *
QUOTE (StuartBu @ Thu, 24 Apr 2014 - 10:10) *
It's been mentioned a couple of times about street lights not being lit during the day ...but during the day you can see them . You can't in hours of darkness .


What u drive in the dark for without headlights either full beam or dipped for? If u had them on, you can see what is in front of u, unless I am mistaken.

Yeah Yeah I drive in the dark with sidelights on!!!! Ive already dealt with that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 13:09
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,490
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



http://consultations.kent.gov.uk/consult.t...onsultationHome

Further to a recent thread I started on here about the Kent Council policy of switching off street lights, they've now introduced the above Order to "enforce the 30mph in area where street lights have been switched off. This was done to appease residents who were concerned about "speeding cars" at night "racing along roads with 30 limits" at up to 60mph. Having just found the official paperwork, I find the roads affected in my area mentioned. The Order covers 2 short sections of road both about 300m long, no mention of the 2 mile stretch in the middle! Look at the Order for New Romney and then Lydd.

another waste of time and money from Kent to achieve very little.

Maybe if a mod can find my original thread they can merge this.

This post has been edited by roythebus: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 13:09
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
henrik777
post Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 13:51
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,825
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Member No.: 24,123



http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=89812&hl=
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
StuartBu
post Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 15:10
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6,178
Joined: 1 Jan 2013
From: Glasgow
Member No.: 59,097



QUOTE (roythebus @ Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 14:09) *
Maybe if a mod can find my original thread they can merge this.

If you want to find that or any other post you made just tap your username and a dropdown menu will appear giving you the choice of YOUR POSTS or YOUR TOPICS
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roythebus
post Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 17:55
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,490
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
From: Near Calais
Member No.: 9,683



Yes I tired that, for some reason it didn't list anything! There's a problem with my desktop computer!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
henrik777
post Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 18:01
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,825
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Member No.: 24,123



QUOTE (roythebus @ Sun, 6 Jul 2014 - 18:55) *
Yes I tired that, for some reason it didn't list anything! There's a problem with my desktop computer!


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 5th July 2020 - 22:48
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.