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Can I be prosecuted when the NIP arrived after 17 days?
seylectric
post Wed, 23 Apr 2003 - 21:20
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I have just been caught speeding by a fixed Gatso camera. I have just received in the post the Notice of Intended Prosecution. It is 17 days since the offence.

Since I did not recieve the NIP within 14 days can I still be prosecuted?
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post Wed, 23 Apr 2003 - 21:20
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Mika
post Thu, 24 Apr 2003 - 05:33
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Hi,

You should read the NIP page very carefully and what Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin) has to say about this.

NOTE: Even if the NIP was received late, the recipient must still complete, sign and return the S172 notice naming the driver.

The RAC Legal Team gave one of our visitors the following suggested letter, and they recommend that it be posted via Special Delivery and that a copy of the NIP is attached to such a letter.

QUOTE (RAC letter)
Dear Officer ******,

CVVVVVVVV - Notice of Intended Prosecution

I received your letter dated *********, the references for which are detailed above. I have enclosed a copy of the Notice sent to me recently, for ease of cross-reference.

You have written to me because I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle mentioned in your Notice. My address is correct as per the details at DVLC, and the vehicle was not a Company car, and was neither hired nor borrowed.

No Officer spoke to me at the time of the alleged offence, and no accident took place. Also, no Police person has spoken with me at or near the time and place detailed in your Notice. The written Notice is the first indication from you of any intention to prosecute.

Your Notice details the alleged offence as VV:VVhrs on *********. The Notice is dated ********, and it came to me by post, received on ********.

Excluding the day of the alleged offence, this was **th day from the date detailed in your Notice.

Following discussions with the RAC Legal Helpline, please note that the Notice cannot be acted upon as it is time-expired. For this Notice to have been valid, it ought to have been with me within 14 days of the alleged offence [Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin)].

It was suggested I write back to you immediately with these comments.

Yours sincerely

VVVVVVVVV
Registered Keeper
++++


The letter was sent to the Officer in Charge of the Safety Camera Unit, and not the CC. They felt that the Officer would likely bury the matter, whereas a letter to the CC could start a Steward's Enquiry, an avalanche of justification posturing and I might lose in the end through foul means. The letter will be sent to you as a copy when the outcome is known - that way we'll not be passing on unhelpful letters to people needing helpful advice.

Also, it was on the A449 at Llantrissent, Usk, and the RACm (in response to the question about why they send them out after 14 days), stated that most people pay them and don't get advice. There is no repayment mechanism for people who have paid, who really should not have paid owing to the NIP being 'time-expired', (RAC's description for late NIPs).

Also, they were firm on the 14 days. They said that the 70+ mph was an absolute offence, but there were some absolutes on the Police as well. The 14 days is an absolute, mentioned in the Act etc and not a guideline, so it IS THE LAW.

They were careful to go over the exceptions and allowable circumstances, hire car, company vehicle, borrowed car etc, and changed address from that lodged at DVLC etc.; basically, every conceivable pretext for getting it to me late that was arguably not the Police's fault. Also, they said that being 26 days after the alleged offence was not arguable in terms of postal lag.

We'll see. But I now remain hopeful. The worst that can happen now is a malicious Fixed Penalty that can be served after the 14 day period, but the RAC have asked me to get back to them should this happen.
+++++
Nicholson v Tapp
(DC) Divisional Court
c.1972

Summary

Abstract: A notice of intended prosecution posted on the fourteenth day after the alleged offence does not comply with the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1960 s. 241(2) (as amended). A notice of intended prosecution for an alleged offence of dangerous driving was posted to T by recorded delivery service on the fourteenth day after the incident in question.
Summary: Held, the notice did not comply with s. 241(2) of the Road Traffic Act 1960 (as amended). (R. v London County Quarter Sessions Appeals Committee Ex p. Rossi [1956] C.L.Y. considered).

Cases Cited

R. v London County Quarter Sessions Appeals Committee Ex p. Rossi, [1956] 1 Q.B. 682; [1956] 2 W.L.R. 800; [1956] 1 All E.R. 670; (1956) 120 J.P. 239; (1956) 100 S.J. 225 (CA)

Legislation Cited

As amended by Road Traffic Act 1962 s. 51
Road Traffic Act 1962
Road Traffic Act 1960 s. 241
END OF DOCUMENT


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seylectric
post Sat, 26 Apr 2003 - 00:51
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for your excellent advice. I will post here on a later date with the outcome.
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brgccfc
post Sun, 17 Aug 2003 - 16:44
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any news on what happened ?
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Mika
post Sun, 17 Aug 2003 - 16:54
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Hi,

What do you think happened?…..

He heard no more - the Police didn’t even acknowledge receipt of the letter. icon_eek.gif

But, as you probably know, bullies “don’t like it up 'em”. icon_redface.gif


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jdrowen
post Tue, 11 Nov 2003 - 08:44
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Hello,

I was caught by a mobile camera van on the A5 doing 71mph in a 60mph area on the 28 September 2003.

I was the registered keeper and the driver at the time.

The NIP didn't arrive until the 21 October 2003 (about 23 days after the camera caught me).

I sent the suggested letter to the central ticket office stating that the ticket was "time-expired".

However they have sent a letter back saying that the original NIP was sent to the previous owner within the 14 days and resent the NIP to me on the 1 October 2003 (which is still over the 14 days) 1 October to 21 October.

Can someone please give me some advice as to what I write back to them.

Regards

John
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Mika
post Tue, 11 Nov 2003 - 09:10
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John,

Two things:

Have you checked with the previous keeper, that what the police have told you is accurate?

How long have you been the registered keeper of the vehicle? Because:

I have been informed that the DVLA provide the details of registered keepers to the police in the form of tapes, which are then load on to the PNC – Police National Computer. The PNC is used to provide the details for the issuing of NIPs etc.

However, failure by the police to comply with section 1(1) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 is not a bar to conviction of the accused where the court is satisfied –

(a) that neither the name and address of the accused nor the name and address of the registered keeper, if any, could with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for a summons, or as the case may be, a complaint to be served or for a notice to be served or sent in compliance with the requirement , OR
(B) that the accused by his own conduct contributed to the delay.


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jdrowen
post Tue, 11 Nov 2003 - 09:35
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Mika,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

1. I have not been in touch with the previous keeper yet - how do I find his number?.

2. I bought the car on the 12 September 2003, which is only two weeks before the offence (28 September). I assume that the information was not loaded onto the PNC in time for them to issue me with a NIP.

My full name is: John Derfel Rhys Owen but on the NIP I received, it only had Owen as my name - can I make an issue out of this?

I am not 100% clear on your second point in your reply.

John
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Mika
post Tue, 11 Nov 2003 - 12:40
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John,

In my opinion, the 14 day rule may not apply in this case, and the error with your name can probably be rectified by means of the slip rule.

I suggest that you speak to Robert Dobson and Pryce Woodrow and you should explain that I suggested that you speak to him.

However, please don’t forget to sign the Form. icon_wink.gif


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jdrowen
post Tue, 11 Nov 2003 - 13:50
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Mika,

I think I might give in on this one - fill in the NIP and sign it and receive my punishment of £60 and 3 points. icon_cry.gif

Thank you very much for your help.

Keep up the good work biggrin.gif

Regards

John
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robketh
post Wed, 12 Nov 2003 - 16:37
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Hi Mika,

Thank you very much for your helpful advice to seylectric and others.

I am in a similar position to seylectric, though with one difference.

I drive a company (lease) car and have received from my fleet manager a copy of the NIP sent to my company (registered keeper/owner of the vehicle). The date on the NIP is 18 days after the date of the offence (36mph in 30mph zone).

Being a lease car will the 14 day rule apply? I imagine they would have had to contact the lease company first in order to get my company's details.

My company have obviously sent the NIP back stating my name as keeper.

My second question is, should I write a similar letter to the one shown in this thread now, or should I wait until my own copy of the NIP arrives?

Also, reading elsewhere in this forum it seems that writing such a letter sometimes does not receive a reply. Is it ok to assume the case has been dropped or could one get a nasty surprise a while after?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Kind regards,

Rob.
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brgccfc
post Wed, 12 Nov 2003 - 17:06
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If your vehicle is a lease car then they will write to the lease company not your company and this must be "sent" ie posted within 14 days. They have no restrictions on time to send out subsequent NIP's.
You can check with the DVLA who was listed by them as the registered keeper at any given time , just ring them up, i did and if you read my post under company cars or summit there is more details.
If you had only had your car for two weeks it will more than likely still be in the last keepers name. Mine took months to actually swap over.
Good luck Bob
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robketh
post Thu, 13 Nov 2003 - 15:48
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Thanks, Bob. I will check with the DVLA but it seems very likely that they would have contacted the lease company first, so the 18 days means nothing. Looks like I will have to bite the bullet and accept the 3 points sad.gif

I want one of those speed limiters fitted that have been trialled in a few Skodas. I don't want exceed the limit any more, but sometimes you do accidently. What a ridiculous situation.

Then it would be the producer of the limiter that would be responsible for keeping the car within the limits.
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black knight
post Thu, 13 Nov 2003 - 16:49
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I am in similar circumstances. I received a N.I.P. 18 days after the alleged offence. I have spent a long time researching this & was pointed in the direction of your website. I have responded with a letter along the lines suggested by R.A.C. accompanied by a copy of the N.I.P. which I signed, timed & dated. What should I do now ? I am loathe to fill in the rest of the form as I cannot remember who was driving the vehicle that day. icon_question.gif
Please advise me as to what course of action to take!
Regards Black Knight 8)


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nigeldunne64
post Thu, 13 Nov 2003 - 18:07
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Black Knight a) wait and see if you get the Police to drop the case as time expired. B) If not you have the paragraph 4 defence if you don't know who was driving. Ask to see the photos to help ID the driver. If they don't help do polite letter pointing out you cannot ID the driver and offer to list the possible drivers. they will then drop the case most likely.
All the people above you giving up - don't there are so many other ways. If you have bothered to find this site you probably aren't quitters are you icon_question.gif


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robketh
post Fri, 14 Nov 2003 - 09:42
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QUOTE (nigeldunne64)
All the people above you giving up - don't there are so many other ways. If you have bothered to find this site you probably aren't quitters are you icon_question.gif


Thanks for the encouraging words. It seems difficult to know how to wriggle out of this one - in my case though only over the limit by 6 mph it is technically a 'fair cop'. I believe the camera was a Truvelo which flashed from the front. I imagine they can see me (yes I may ask for the photo) but anyway I will not go to the lengths of lying about who was driving or that I don't remember who was driving, because I do!

I know you can ask to not be banned due to mitigating circumstances where huge hardship can be proven, but I am not aware the same applies to points.

What other ways are there?

Maybe I'll just have to start driving an electric OAP buggy icon_wink.gif .
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nigeldunne64
post Fri, 14 Nov 2003 - 12:20
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No Rob, the only way to avoid the points are : 1) If the force who caught you operate the driver awareness type course where instead of paying the £60 and get 3 points you attend a few hours of lectures on the dangers of speeding or 2) you read MrWonderfuls post at the top of this forum and get your wife to return an unsigned completed form. If you go this route you are doing all that the law requires and you have a good chance of avoiding any fine/points/insurance bills/worry re losing your job if you get to 12 points and a ban. But it is your call and not everyone wants the stress and grief. icon_wink.gif


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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Nov 2003 - 12:42
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Nigel,
Ref your point 2) to be fair I don't think we can say that that is fully established yet can we?

Simon
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Jimbob
post Mon, 17 Nov 2003 - 22:37
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ohmy.gif Like Robketh I drive a company car and was surprised to receive a NIP through the post. However I only received it last week and it was for an offence on 16/08/03.

So does the same rule go for me even though it was nearly 3 MONTHS after the claimed offence!! I know that the company were only contacted on the 5th November, and I find it hard to believe that the lease company would take 6-8 weeks to respond to the first NIP.

To say I was surprised to receive the Notice is an understatement as it was on the A38 dual carriageway (2-Laned) in Bristol by the M5, which I thought should have been a 70mph, but apparantly is 40mph. Therefore any advice would be appreciated, as I am rather peeved and gutted, and don't really want them to get away with being soooo sly!!

Cheers
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froggo
post Mon, 8 Dec 2003 - 02:00
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QUOTE (robketh)
I want one of those speed limiters fitted that have been trialled in a few Skodas. I don't want exceed the limit any more, but sometimes you do accidently. What a ridiculous situation.

Oh no. Sometimes when driving you need to put the foot down to get out of a tricky situation. These dangerous devices will cause far more accidents than they prevent. It's a real shames that metal cameras don't have any common sense.
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