Disabled Parking at Sainsburys, Had interesting reply to enquiry |
Disabled Parking at Sainsburys, Had interesting reply to enquiry |
Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 11:38
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,836 |
Hi,
This is my first post here but I've been browsing the site for some time and been active on other forums for many years. Background is that my wife is disabled and does not have a Blue Badge. We noticed signs up at Sainsbury that said the disabled parking spaces were only for Blue Badge holders. I queried that with their Customer Services team based on my understanding that:
Sainsbury's own corporate website stated: QUOTE All car parks have designated disabled parking spaces. These are situated near the main store entrance for any of our customers with a mobility/access requirement. (note use of the word "any").I got a reply today which stated: QUOTE Dear Mr W~ Thank you for your email and your patience while we looked into your query about designated disability parking spaces. We have received a reply from our internal team and they have advised us that we only allow disabled customers with blue badges to use our disabled spaces which is in line with DFT guidance. If you are registered disabled, you are entitled to a blue badge. If you have walking difficulties and require wider bays to get in or out of your vehicle, you are welcome to use a parent and child bay. Our website will be updated to display the correct information. We appreciate you taking the time to bring this matter to our attention. Kind regards Katrina Dick | Customer Manager Sainsbury's Supermarkets Ltd | 33 Holborn, London | EC1N 2HT So they ARE insisting on Blue Badges for the disabled spaces but it's fine for disabled people to use Parent and Child spaces. Is anybody aware of the DFT guidance mentioned or come across this policy before? |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 11:38
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 11:59
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
I got a reply today which stated: QUOTE ... We have received a reply from our internal team and they have advised us that we only allow disabled customers with blue badges to use our disabled spaces which is in line with DFT guidance. If you are registered disabled, you are entitled to a blue badge .... Katrina Dick Hmm ... Katrina Dick .... no, I won't go there. SchoolRunMum will be along shortly, she is the expert (CouponMad on MSE). As far as I know, there are no registered disabled nowadays. It's up to local authorities to decide conditions under which their residents qualify. Check Eligibility. I would write back and ask them if they recognise provisions of the Equality Act 2000 (the law of the land?) or have a special Sainsbury's discounted legislation - Definition of disability under the Equality Act 2010. Then I would ask them politely to cancel the ticket (if you have got one) and reconsider how they treat people with disabilities, that is until somebody will take them to court one day. Even the CAB (who are usually tame when it comes to dealing with PPCs) know that the Blue Badge is irrelevant on private land. Parking on private land. DfT guidance is here - Blue Badge scheme. And here (see page 13) - The Blue Badge scheme: rights and responsibilities for organisations that have Blue Badges. But I am sure SRM will have a better reference saying that blue badge is not applicable to private car parks. ----------------------------- EDIT: After thinking this over I feel quite aggrieved for you. Yet again our biggest retailers are discriminating against some part of its customer group. I prefer to tackle things head on, so this is only what I would do. You might feel uncomfortable writing back to them saying something like: Dear Ms Dick Thank you for your helpful reply. Before looking further into this matter I would ask you to pass this my inquiry to your "internal team" or legal team. I will need a reply from them within 14 days before I take any further action. I need to know Sainsbury's position on the following: i) Does Sainsbury recognise the Equality Act 2010? ii) Does Sainsbury recognise disability as defined in the Equality Act 2010? iii) Does Sainsbury operate a policy/policies that treat people who are defined as disabled accordingly to the Equality Act 2010 different to those who are members of the Blue Badge scheme? Thanks... Yours ... That'll give them something to chew over. This post has been edited by tapas600: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 15:03 -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 14:03
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,769 Joined: 7 Nov 2009 Member No.: 33,505 |
If you park in a parent and child space without the requisite child , will they issue a fake ticket for that?
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 14:22
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
If you park in a parent and child space without the requisite child , will they issue a fake ticket for that? Depends if they have money to spend on parking attendants. The progress of technology means more and more are using ANPR today and it's quite tricky to find a missing 'requisite' child by remote. -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 14:42
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#5
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,836 |
If you park in a parent and child space without the requisite child , will they issue a fake ticket for that? We were just down there. There is clear signage which says that the Parent and Child bays are only gor use by those with children under 12. Parked in one anyway as I had a copy of Katrina's letter on me. However, that didn't stop us getting the odd "look" from other customers - and why should it? |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 14:50
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
If you park in a parent and child space without the requisite child , will they issue a fake ticket for that? We were just down there. There is clear signage which says that the Parent and Child bays are only gor use by those with children under 12. Parked in one anyway as I had a copy of Katrina's letter on me. However, that didn't stop us getting the odd "look" from other customers - and why should it? You can put a notice on your dashboard saying - I have parked in this space because other people took all the disabled spaces. Also see an additional edit to my first response to you. This post has been edited by tapas600: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 14:51 -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 15:01
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,931 Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Member No.: 4,323 |
QUOTE We have received a reply from our internal team and they have advised us that we only allow disabled customers with blue badges to use our disabled spaces which is in line with DFT guidance unleash SRM on this - she will educate them in a forthright manner -------------------- Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.
Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader. |
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Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 17:55
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 262 Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Member No.: 57,180 |
If you park in a parent and child space without the requisite child , will they issue a fake ticket for that? We were just down there. There is clear signage which says that the Parent and Child bays are only gor use by those with children under 12. Parked in one anyway as I had a copy of Katrina's letter on me. However, that didn't stop us getting the odd "look" from other customers - and why should it? Do they ask for a birth certificate of the child under 12 then ? They don't ask for proof of that as these child bays are a gimmick nothing more. Disabled bays on private land is for all disabled people whether they have a blue badge or not, asking to display one when they are not relevant to private land is a breach of the Equality Act. On that do retailers ask for a blue badge or to prove that someone is disabled to use one of their powered trolleys ? This post has been edited by jagger: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 - 17:57 |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 00:18
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
Do they ask for a birth certificate of the child under 12 then ? They don't ask for proof of that as these child bays are a gimmick nothing more. Disabled bays on private land is for all disabled people whether they have a blue badge or not, asking to display one when they are not relevant to private land is a breach of the Equality Act. On that do retailers ask for a blue badge or to prove that someone is disabled to use one of their powered trolleys ? That's kind of the point I made in my reply earlier on the MSE thread: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4515127 It's direct discrimination to treat a disabled person less favourably than an able-bodied person (and the example of not requiring 'proof' to park in the - fairly comparable - P&C bays is a good one). This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 00:19 |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 10:46
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#10
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,836 |
Thank you all for your replies to date. I will be respofing to Sainsburys in polite but strong terms and will take on board the really useful points made here and over in MSE.
I realise that a favourable outcome will benefit only a minority of people here. However, it will be a definite kick in the balls for PPCs who feel they can make up the law as they go along. Worse are seemingly "respectable" companies like J Sainsbury who will thake the word of a PPC over the law just to get an easy life. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 13:18
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,931 Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Member No.: 4,323 |
send a PM to SRM and point her at this thread
or just look up her posts on this matter -------------------- Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.
Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 13:29
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,769 Joined: 7 Nov 2009 Member No.: 33,505 |
Sainsbury's have form over this.They were the ones that had a leaflet in their shops which said "Blue Badge and Parent & Child Parking Bays - Fine if you qualify, £50 fine if you don't'.
A MSE poster also sent them this email when they used the "f" word on some of their signs:- "Dear Sirs, I recently visited your newly-opened High Wycombe store, and very nice it is too. However, I feel I must have missed some news bulletins recently, because when I drove into the car park there, I noticed signs saying that if drivers parked in the disabled bays without a blue badge, they would be "fined" £50. The same condition applied to parent & child bays. Now as any clued up person knows, fines can only be issued by the Courts, Police, or local Councils. For a private company to claim to be able to fine someone, would be a contravention of Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. I can only assume, therefore, that since these signs must have been approved by some legal top bananas in Sainsbury's, and they clearly wouldn't want to be committing fraudulent acts, that J Sainsbury has recently passed into public ownership and is now a sub-division of the Ministry of Agriculture or some such government organisation. Please could you confirm this?" |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 13:30
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,178 Joined: 1 Jan 2013 From: Glasgow Member No.: 59,097 |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 13:35
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
"Dear Sirs, I recently visited your newly-opened High Wycombe store, and very nice it is too. However, I feel I must have missed some news bulletins recently, because when I drove into the car park there, I noticed signs saying that if drivers parked in the disabled bays without a blue badge, they would be "fined" £50. The same condition applied to parent & child bays. Now as any clued up person knows, fines can only be issued by the Courts, Police, or local Councils. For a private company to claim to be able to fine someone, would be a contravention of Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006. I can only assume, therefore, that since these signs must have been approved by some legal top bananas in Sainsbury's, and they clearly wouldn't want to be committing fraudulent acts, that J Sainsbury has recently passed into public ownership and is now a sub-division of the Ministry of Agriculture or some such government organisation. Please could you confirm this?" Hilarious! ! ! Breach of of Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006, Disability Discrimination Act 1992 and Equality Act 2010 by Sainsbury's is a new high for UK retail sector. Methinks a class action is long overdue. This post has been edited by tapas600: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 13:38 -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 14:00
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,931 Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Member No.: 4,323 |
a class action ?
how ? -------------------- Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.
Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 14:28
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
a class action ? how ? There must be a few thousands of Sainsbury's customers who lost their money through these fake tickets. I know the term is outdated but the notion still exists, no? This post has been edited by tapas600: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 14:28 -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 16:22
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,931 Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Member No.: 4,323 |
IIRC its extremely rare and only in very limited circumstances.
There has never been a generally applicable "class action" in English Law (again IIRC, last line of my sig is not a joke) -------------------- Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.
Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader. |
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Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 16:31
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,007 Joined: 2 Dec 2012 Member No.: 58,663 |
IIRC its extremely rare and only in very limited circumstances. There has never been a generally applicable "class action" in English Law (again IIRC, last line of my sig is not a joke) OK. That bucket of cold water steadied me on. But then again, there's always a first. Love your knowledge, Bama. This post has been edited by tapas600: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 - 16:31 -------------------- Remember: No one can fine you or issue a penalty other than a court, a policeman or a local authority under legislative powers.
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 Further guidance on PoFA - DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 Essential Reading: Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) Guide to the Legislation - to learn how the private parking charges process works look at this flowchartParking on Private Land Appeals or POPLA is run by London Councils - the British Parking Association Ltd. (BPA Ltd) pays London Councils for this service. In fact, POPLA is a kangaroo court that rubber stumps private parking companies claims - read this Telegraph article and this Blog. The related documents can be found here. To see for yourself why POPLA has no legal powers and is not really independent please download and read this document from London Councils’ Transport & Environment Committee. More evidence that POPLA is not independent - read how PPCs are subverting the due appeal process and seek a back door deal to influence POPLA decisions. |
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Tue, 30 Apr 2013 - 11:23
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#19
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,836 |
Thanks for your help on this, both here and on MSE. To bring people here up to date with what happened next I used the information gratefully received to write the following letter to Sainsburys:
QUOTE Dear Katrina, Many thanks for your note. Apologies for the delay in replying - we've been on holiday and I also needed to double-check some facts, being somewhat surprised by your response. Please can you ensure that this correspondence is copied to your legal department and anybody who deals with risk management in your organisation? Reasons for that will become apparent later on. Taking your responses in turn: "We have received a reply from our internal team" Was this a team with legal knowledge or one that just creates policies? Unfortunately Sainsburys has run into trouble in the past with this. A prime example was when the High Wycombe store opened and Sainsburys put up notices saying that they would "fine" anybody using a disabled or parent/child bay without meeting the requirements £50. As fines can only be issued by courts, police or local councils this policy was a clear breach of the 2006 Fraud Act (Section 2). "...which is in line with DFT guidance" The DFT is quite specific on how the Blue Badge schem operates on private land. It does not apply at all. Refer to Page 6 of the Blue Badge Handbook at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...nsibilities.pdf which states "However, the badge is intended for on-street parking only. Off-street car parks, such as those provided in local authority, hospital or supermarket car parks are governed by separate rules." There is no DFT guidance whatsoever which applies here. " If you are registered disabled, you are entitled to a blue badge." Firstly, what do you mean by "registered disabled"? There is no "register" of disabled people. What applies here is teh definition of disability under the 2010 Equality Act. Fortunately this is quite simple and is stated at https://www.gov.uk/definition-of-disability...uality-act-2010. This bears no relationship at all to Blue Badge entitlement (not that that should apply anyway). You are effectively saying that people with cancer, ME, learning difficulties, visual impairment etc. are 'not as disabled' as those with a Blue Badge. The Equality Act 2010 does not discriminate like that and a retailer breaks the law if they do. "...you are welcome to use a parent and child bay." Unfortunately this is also not true. We tried. I had a copy of your previous note on me so felt able to ignore the big sign that said that anybody using one of the P/C bays without a child under the age of 12 would face a charge of £60. However, what we could not ignore was the abuse received from other shoppers who felt that we were "just being lazy" (and worse). My wife was almost in tears after that experience. So "welcome"? Definitely not.It's also a clear case of one disabled person be treated less favourably than another. On that point it could be argued therefore, that there is DIRECT DISCRIMINATION against disabled people because you are not treating them as favourably as other visitors allowed to use special bays. If you can leave family cars showing any sign of a 'child on board' alone in P/C bays then you can leave cars alone which are in (legally important) disabled bays, and displaying any sign of disability (such as an obviously disabled person struggling to get out of the car and exhibiting severe difficulty in walking). In conclusion, I need a reply to the following questions within fourteen days from your "internal" or legal team: i) Does Sainsbury recognise the Equality Act 2010? ii) Does Sainsbury recognise disability as defined in the Equality Act 2010? iii) Does Sainsbury operate a policy/policies that treat people who are defined as disabled accordingly to the Equality Act 2010 different to those who are members of the Blue Badge scheme? Today I received the following reply: QUOTE Thank you for your email and for your patience while our team investigated your query. We appreciate your concerns regarding our response and we have passed your comments to our communications team. Our team has investigated and can confirm that the signs at our Corey’s Mill store have not changed and have been in place for some time. In order to ensure that we make disabled spaces available for those who need them, we do apply the blue badge policy across all our car parks. We enforce misuse of disabled bays by issuing anyone who parks in a disabled parking bay without displaying a valid blue badge with a £60 parking charge notice. We feel that that this approach is fair and consistent with other private car parks across the country. If a customer does not qualify for a blue badge and needs a wider parking bay closer to the store they are welcome to use one of our parent and child bays. They should however notify the customer services desk so that we can inform our parking attendants. We appreciate you taking the time to contact us. We hope this information has been helpful and we hope to see you in store again soon. Kind regards Christine Cruikshank | Customer Manager So, that seems to be the end of it. You MUST have a Blue Badge and the Equality Act doesn't come in to it at all. |
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Tue, 30 Apr 2013 - 11:29
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
we hope to see you in store again soon. Not likely... No answer on the Equality Act then. Take it to the local papers! -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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