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Police Traffic Warden at Airport summons rec'd updated
poshtaxi
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 12:39
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Was at Airport a few weeks ago to collect a client from arrivals terminal. A long 140 metre stretch of concourse with double yellow lines commonly used for pulling up and collecting passengers. In the past the Traffic Wardens have asked me and other drivers to circle the stretch until their passengers are there to load and be on our way. 3 Wardens were patrolling this stretch on the day and one walked over and I predicted her words and said 'you want me to circle' and I drove the stretch and exited and had to repeat this until I spotted client. Approached the 140metre stretch again and drove slowly along hoping to spot client. Lots of other cars and taxi's just pulled over on the stretch waiting with Wardens loitering.

After literally 6 circuits I pulled over at the start of the stretch with the 3 traffic wardens towards the end of the stretch and waited out of the way for a phone call or message from the client who had booked me. Few minutes later the wardens walked down the stretch towards other parked cars and I guessed it was time to move and circle again. I pulled out and drove up the stretch and one of the wardens signalled for me to pull over. I wound my window and asked what the problem was and she said 'pull over' I replied by saying 'you asked me to circle 10 minutes ago' and she said she was giving me a ticket. One of the Wardens stood in front of my car whilst the other began taking reg etc. I was a tad agrieved and reversed the car a foot or so and drove around the warden in front. The warden said I'd be summonsed if I drove off and I said 'whatever' and carried on circling and pulling over until I collected client.

S172 arrived today addressed to my mother the reg. keeper for offence 482 NO waiting at any time requesting  drivers details at time of offence.
Highlighted in red marker is the following:



YOU ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE THE INFORMATION ON THE FORM ATTACHED

Good to see PACE witness statements being a thorn in their side   biggrin.gif

My mother lives abroad so just wondering what course of action to follow.
I could use this to my advantage but naturally don't want her convicted in her absence. So if she gives my details to the Police and they write to me requesting confirmation I was driver I'm tempted to go PACE witness statement blah blah route.

Is this offence endorsable or non endorsable fixed penalty as it does'nt state on S172. Thanks in advance.

Oh - got the whole incident on vhs video from my windscreen mounted forward facing camera. Don't fancy my chances of a magistrate siding with me compared to a revenue raising officer.
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post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 12:39
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Bob_Sprocket
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 16:43
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Hi Posh,

Is it just an s172 notice or does it have other functions.

Is there any chance that we could see this document please.

Best wishes

Bob
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poshtaxi
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 17:34
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yeah bob http://images.snapfish.com/34493%3C%3A%3B2...B8%3B%3C3ot1lsi

hope this helps
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 19:36
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Will your mother be in a position to reply within the 28days? what do you do with other mail sent for her? It is not adviseable to nominate yourself as it could be used as a voluntary statement.

Moot point but asking for the DRIVER when the car is WAITING is a little contrary and could be used to cause some fun if you felt like it!

Be worth checking all he lines and signs are 100% legal anyway as that is a good copout, otherwise you need to get someone o fill in the form, nominate you and use a PACE letter I think!

Simon
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 19:44
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QUOTE (The Rookie)
It is not adviseable to nominate yourself as it could be used as a voluntary statement.

Why would he do that? It's not addressed to him?
Even if he did, it is evidence against him under S12 RTOA 1988 because it wasn't addressed to him.
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poshtaxi
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 20:26
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My mother is here 21st Sept. so could get her to fill out S172 and nominate me which she would want to do as she will flap and worry if it was left with her. The chances of any prosecution affecting her and her licence are close to zero as whenever she comes over to uk she gets taxi's (me) and has'nt driven here in 3 years as she is not used to the level of traffic. She has no plans to move back either. Anyway not the point.

Will check the double yellows over weekend to see regards 'T' ends.

So does anyone know the likely penalty i.e endorsable or not for this offence. If its a fixed penalty I may just pay and put against tax bill but if its going to affect my licence then I'll fight all the way and PACE will be used.
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DW190
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 20:32
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QUOTE (poshtaxi)
My mother is here 21st Sept. so could get her to fill out S172 and nominate me which she would want to do as she will flap and worry if it was left with her. The chances of any prosecution affecting her and her licence are close to zero as whenever she comes over to uk she gets taxi's (me) and has'nt driven here in 3 years as she is not used to the level of traffic. She has no plans to move back either. Anyway not the point.

Will check the double yellows over weekend to see regards 'T' ends.

So does anyone know the likely penalty i.e endorsable or not for this offence. If its a fixed penalty I may just pay and put against tax bill but if its going to affect my licence then I'll fight all the way and PACE will be used.


Posh,
This is Manchesters finest that you are dealing with.  Just had a mates s172 dropped at court on the day of the hearing following sending a pace statement.

Get your mum to fill in the s172 naming you then send the pace statement.

You could get lucky and get summonsed for S172 or you may receive a conditional offer which will clearly state the fine and points if applicable.

Does the Hong Kong road fall within the public roads or is it a private road owned and maintained by the airport authorities?


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poshtaxi
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 21:23
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Cheers DW190

Is this normal practice to issue S172 without NIP. Just strikes me as odd requesting drivers details and not detailing penalty i.e endorsable or not and £30 fine (usual parking fine).

How do I find out if this is endorsable icon_question.gif

Letter dated 30th August, received 7th Sept and sent 2nd class franked 21P. They've mailed it on the 13th day and sent 2nd class.

Many options potentially here but I agree PACE is favourite.

Cheers
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andy_foster
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 21:28
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Can't say that I've ever heard of an endorsable parking offence.

Cue DW190 pointing out some examples...


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Insider
post Thu, 8 Sep 2005 - 21:31
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QUOTE ([url=http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/83/83360_parkers_driven_out_in_airport_terror_alert.html)
News Story[/url]]Parkers driven out in airport terror alert

CARS have been banned from waiting for passengers outside Manchester Airport'she new ruling has also caused chaos for coach drivers, who have told how they have been moved on by wardens and forced to drive round the airport for up to an hour while they wait for delayed passengers.

Traffic wardens had allowed drivers to park up at the three terminals to wait for arriving passengers as long as they stayed at the wheel.

But police at the airport reviewed the decision and have asked wardens to enforce established rules which prohibit drivers from waiting near terminal buildings.

Infuriated

Motorists are allowed to set down and pick up passengers outside the terminals but are now no longer allowed to wait.

The new ruling has infuriated coach drivers, who now have nowhere to park.

A coach park was removed in a multi-million-pound revamp of parking facilities outside terminal one last year. Instead, coaches were allowed to park on two dual carriageways at the airport.

But police banned this as well when a car crashed into the back of a parked coach. No-one was seriously hurt.

It leaves some coach drivers with nowhere left to park, aimlessly driving round the airport until their passengers appear outside the terminal. Coaches, unlike cars and mini-buses, are not allowed in the new short-stay car park outside terminal one, where the first 10 minutes are free of charge.

Other coach drivers, armed with mobile phone numbers for arriving passengers, park up well away from the airport and wait for a call.

"It's chaos at the moment - it's not creating a very good impression for tourists arriving at Manchester," said Wesley Goodwin, from Eccles, a driver and director of Go Goodwins coach company, which employs about 25 drivers and has 25 coaches and mini-buses.

Wesley learned about the no-waiting ruling when he went to the airport's terminal three to pick up US pop star Justin Timberlake and his entourage before a gig in Manchester.

Security

"The warden suggested I park on the dual carriageway outside terminal two, walk back to terminal three and then go back to get the coach when Timberlake arrived - that would have taken me nearly an hour," said Wesley.

"Now, after the crash, we're not even allowed to park on dual carriageways. This is supposed to be an international airport, the country's third biggest.

"I came here last Sunday and spent 30 minutes just driving round the airport. You could be driving round for an hour if passengers are delayed."

Chief Insp Brian Davies, of Manchester Airport police, confirmed no-waiting regulations were now being enforced as part of the heightened security at the airport and elsewhere in the country.

"We do offer our sympathies and we are working on a solution," he added.

A Manchester Airport spokesman said: "We are talking to the police with a view to getting coach parking bays at The Station, our new interchange, though that's not been confirmed yet."


QUOTE (Lincs Police)
Functions, Powers and Duties of a Traffic Warden
Section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967, as amended by Section 131 of the Transport Act 1968, and the Functions of Traffic Wardens Order 1970, state the functions of and the duties which may be undertaken by a Traffic Warden.  (Reference Standing Order No. G.3/1).


Did they have any police 'no waiting cones' out ?

And AFAIK there are no endorsable 'no-waiting' parking offences.


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jeffreyarcher
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 00:18
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QUOTE (poshtaxi)
Is this normal practice to issue S172 without NIP.

I don't know how 'normal' it is. Howver there was one posted here a few weeks back. It was using the hard sholder on a motorway, IIRC.

QUOTE (poshtaxi)
Just strikes me as odd requesting drivers details and not detailing penalty i.e endorsable or not and £30 fine (usual parking fine).

These offences do not require a NIP.

QUOTE (poshtaxi)
Letter dated 30th August, received 7th Sept and sent 2nd class franked 21P. They've mailed it on the 13th day and sent 2nd class.

The first class post, and receipt within 14 days, are both requirements of NIPs, not S172 notices.
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Insider
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 11:35
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QUOTE
These offences do not require a NIP.


I've just had a thought... are you going to get done over for a Fail to Stop  :idea:


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poshtaxi
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 12:53
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All good information. Thanks.

Regarding the fail to stop I doubt  as the offence stated on the S172 is No waiting at anytime. So unless the Traffic Warden has checked on the 'computer' to see who the RK is and has seen it is female and not the person she was giving a ticket to (male) maybe she has just sent out the S172 with a brief explanation for doing so to get my details to then send an S172 and NIP for 'Fail to stop'  :?: Perhaps this would explain why there is no penalty/ endorsment details on the S172 as they are expecting my mum to give my details and then hit me with NIP?

Could they do that or can they only do me for the offence on the original S172?
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peteturbo
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 13:06
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Posh,
Just a thought.  You are possibly carrying on a business with a car registered in anothers name.
I assume you are 100% confident with your insurance, since some companies might not be too happy with this arrangement.
You dont want them coming after you for no insurance.


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andy_foster
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 13:10
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When an NIP is required, it must be served on either the driver or thr RK within 14 days - waiting 28 days to find out who was driving so that you can serve an NIP on them is unnecesesary and doesn't comply with the requirements of s.1 RTOA 1988.


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BikerPaul
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 13:17
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QUOTE (poshtaxi)
maybe she has just sent out the S172 with a brief explanation for doing so to get my details to then send an S172 and NIP for 'Fail to stop'  icon_question.gif


Traffic wardens do not, generally, have the power to "cause a vehicle to stop"

There are exceptions, but only for "trasffic control" at junctions etc.
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Insider
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 15:28
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QUOTE
Traffic wardens do not, generally, have the power to "cause a vehicle to stop"


They do now my friend  :roll:


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smstextaddict
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 17:33
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I personally would wait for your mum to get back and get her to ask for evidence in order to identify the driver, then when they get back get her to nominate you, you do the same to make sure its you, then send off the pace statement.

Is it 6 months to time out on s172 as well as nips ?
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poshtaxi
post Fri, 9 Sep 2005 - 18:03
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I know what you mean r.e. insurance and registered keeper etc. It is a grey area and it seems each insurance company is different. Some are'nt bothered as many taxi drivers rent their cars from others or companies who have fleets of cars.

Anyway don't want to get side tracked from the issue bout the S172 as I could easily start a thread which would be pages long regarding insurance issue I had recently with a car my girlfriend bought on finance and had me as the main insurer and her as named to bring the premium down. Finance company cancelled the deal and we had to give the car back to the dealer as the premium to have her as main driver was £1k per annum more expensive. End of !
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Lance
post Mon, 12 Sep 2005 - 11:13
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This S172 notice does not state which law or regulation has been broken. It simply states Offence Code 828 - No Waiting At Anytime.

Anyone know what the offence is, and what penalties are laid down in law?


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