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Stopped and FPN for failing to comply with no entry sign
cheeseburgers
post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 11:01
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Hi,

I was pulled over after passing through a no entry sign (616 I think) with except buses etc (954 I think) underneath and passed a police car and was pulled over. I tried to show remorse and convey that I was annoyed with myself at doing it and I think I did a good job of incriminating myself.

I was given a FPN for £60 and 3 points. 7 days to produce licence is up 23rd Oct. The offence code given was TS20 A stating fail to comply with no entry sign.

The road in question is the B4055 Station Road, Henbury, Bristol. Google Street view shows old smaller signs and no thick white line across the entry to the road.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=b4055,+sta...0,3.92&z=19

My question is whether this should be an endorsable offence and if there is anything I can do to about the situation. I am waiting to hear back from the council with the TRO for the road.

Thanks for your help.
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post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 11:01
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Logician
post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 19:53
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Your Streetview shows a clear stretch of road, so the sign is not apparent, but failing to obey a no entry sign is an endorsable offence, whereas going the wrong way down a one-way road is not.


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Pancras
post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 20:28
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I think that where there are exceptions, the penalty should be a £30 non-endorsable fixed penalty ticket for failing to conform to a No Entry.

Streetview at the entrance to the road suggests there are exceptions

GSV

Thoughts?
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iwmcarthur
post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 21:53
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Is that sign compliant? It's difficult to see the exceptions plate from GSV but it doesn't look to be one of the permitted ones.
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m7891
post Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 22:52
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Chapter 3, section 4 of the Traffic Signs manual applies, I think:

QUOTE
4.42 Where a one-way street order excepts buses,
i.e. to introduce a contra-flow bus lane, the sign to
diagram 953 with the plate to diagram 953.2 (Only)
should be used (see para 15.21). Although the
Directions permit supplementary plates to diagram
954 (Except buses) and 954.2 (Except local buses)
to be used with diagram 616, this is no longer
recommended, as the primary use of the “no entry”
sign is to protect the end of a one-way road, where
it would be hazardous and endanger the safety of
road users should the sign be ignored. No other
plates are prescribed or permitted for use with
the “no entry” sign. Exception plates for cycles
(diagrams 954.3 and 954.4) are prohibited by
direction 21(2) from being used with the “no entry”
sign
. Where cyclists are to be admitted, signs to
diagram 953 or 955 should be used in place of the
“no entry” sign, or a cycle by-pass constructed.
Where access to a two-way street is restricted to a
particular class of vehicle or for a specific purpose
(e.g. loading), a sign to diagram 617 (no vehicles)
or 619 (no motor vehicles) should be used with an
appropriate exception plate. For further details on
contra-flow bus lanes and contra-flow cycle facilities
see sections 15 and 17 respectively.


http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/traf...-chapter-03.pdf

In summary, the only allowed exceptions are "Buses" and "Local buses", with an exception for cycles explicitly prohibited. I think the intention for the stretch of road is better communicated with a "No cars" sign (to allow motorcycles) and the appropriate exceptions for buses and taxis (cycles allowed by the sign itself).

The only way I can see it being allowed is if it has special authorisation from the Secretary of State, which would need looked into.

This post has been edited by m7891: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 - 22:53
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Logician
post Tue, 23 Oct 2012 - 09:46
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cheeseburgers, the No Entry sign is therefroe a non-compliant sign if it is still as it is shown on Streetview, unless it has been specifically authorised, which seems unlikely as it is just the sort of situation where such a sign is prohibited. However, you need to be prepared to fight to get that recognised, and it may mean going to court and possibly appealing to a higher court. This could be expensive. We had one case here where it took a couple of letters to persuade the police to withdraw an FPN relating to a No Entry sign, even though the sign had been removed and did not exist!

If you are prepared for a fight and after you have checked that the sign is still the same as it is shown, I suggest you write back to the police in similar terms to this:

Dear Sirs

I refer to the Fixed Penalty Notice, number xxxxxx dated xx/xx/xx, issued to me in respect of failing to obey a No Entry sign. Having researched the matter, may I refer you to Direction 21(2) of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which reads "(2) A plate shown in diagram 954.3 or 954.4 or the sign shown in diagram 954.6 or 954.7 shall not be placed in combination with the sign shown in diagram 616." This is what has occurred on the No Entry sign referred to, a exception plate for cycles has been placed on it. It therefore does not comply with TSRGD 2002 and is not an authorised sign. As there can be no offence of failing to comply with an unauthorised traffic sign, I request that you withdraw the Fixed Penalty Notice.

Yours faithfully


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cheeseburgers
post Tue, 23 Oct 2012 - 13:06
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Thanks for the replies people.

I had read about the peculiarities with signs with exceptions so wanted to ask. The signs have changed now, and as I remember the except... Has been put on a separate sign below. Either way I couldn't get TRO to confirm from the council in time and suspected the court BS would be expensive and time consuming enough to just accept the FPN and move on. My 7 days were up today or yesterday (7 clear days doesn't read very clearly to me) so I handed my licence over at the station.

Don't think I can do anything now anyways?

Thanks, cheeseburgers

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m7891
post Tue, 23 Oct 2012 - 13:09
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Even if the "except" is on a separate plate, if the same exceptions are given (buses, coaches, motorcycles, taxis and cycles) then it's still non-compliant.
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Logician
post Tue, 23 Oct 2012 - 13:21
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What have you got now, a FPN which gives you 28 days to pay? If so you have not yet accepted it, and you can still write in as suggested. It does not matter if the cyclle exemption is on the same plate as the buses etc. or on a separate plate below that, if it is on the same post the No Entry sign is non-compliant.

Your choice whether to fight or to accept the FPN.


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cheeseburgers
post Tue, 23 Oct 2012 - 13:50
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Thanks, I didn't realise I could still do anything. Maybe I should take a photo of the sign as it is now, and to hope the council can get the TRO to me too.

Yes I have sent my licence off through the station and have a photocopy of the FPN and the bit to post off to pay the £60 fine.

I was coming from the motorway to the (joining from North) roundabout and went through the no entry almost straight on at the roundabout. I'm not sure you can see the sign for the 40+ metres required from that direction either as the roundabout has more foliage now and significant camber. That's despite the new bigger signs.

I would expect going to court would be pretty unpleasant, so any way to resolve outside would be highly preferred (if this ever works?)

Thanks, cheeseburgers

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cheeseburgers
post Sun, 28 Oct 2012 - 19:07
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Hi everyone,

I have had some success in finding the correct TRO from the council. Please give me your interpretations/understandings of the TRO and whether it is enforceable by police/endorsable if stopped by uniformed police and general guidance for the aim of avoiding receiving points without going to court (Ideally).

If the attachments don't work, I'll sort out another way and repost


Thank you for your help.
Cheeseburgers
Attached File(s)
Attached File  X9817_Copy_Order.pdf ( 1.43MB ) Number of downloads: 111
Attached File  X0206___Copy_Order.doc ( 21.5K ) Number of downloads: 78
 
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Logician
post Sun, 28 Oct 2012 - 23:07
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Those orders simply confirm that they were creating a bus lane, and do not change the situation. My comments in #6 apply, your choice whether or not to dispute this.


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cheeseburgers
post Mon, 5 Nov 2012 - 18:11
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Hi everyone,

I passed the sign the other day and can confirm it is as it appears in the streetview image. I have sent a letter as suggested to the Police and wondering what the next step is. Is it best to follow up with another letter or phone call?

When does the 28 days to pay the fine start; Is it from the date of the offence or from when I handed in my licence at the station?

If it is from the date of the offence that give the deadline as the 13th Nov. So am I unsure as to whether I will get a reply from the Police within that time.

As ever your advice is very much appreciated.

Thanks, cheeseburgers
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cheeseburgers
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 16:50
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Hi again,

I have had a response from the Police acknowledging receipt of my letter and saying they will reply within 30 days.

Problem is 28 days from the date of the offence is up on Tuesday so I will have to send my fine payment reply first thing Monday. If the 28 days starts from the date of surrendering my licence I will have another week to wait for a reply from the Police.

Recommendation!?

Thanks for your help,
cheeseburgers
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Logician
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 17:07
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I would not send the payment or your licence because it would be difficult to get the money back and points removed. I would write saying that you are aware that the 28 days given to pay fixed penalty reference xxxxxxxxxxxxx will shortly expire, however you have witheld payment pending a reply to your letter dated xx/xx/xx (copy enclosed) disputing that the notice was properly issued.


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cheeseburgers
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 17:13
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Thanks logician,

I have surrendered my licence at the station already as the FPN and officer stated that I had to otherwise the court process would be started. I have yet to send any money with the Part 2 Payment Slip. (Just reading it now it says 28 days of the offence - Tuesday 13th).

Do you mean to send the letter to where I would post the fine? Do you know how this is usually handled and if it could count against me if this ends up going to court?

Thanks for your advice.
cheeseburgers
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Logician
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 17:34
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Yes, I would send the letter to where you would send the fine, hopefully demonstrating that you have a valid reason for not yet making a payment, ie that you are waiting for a letter from the police about your query.


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cheeseburgers
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 17:54
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Have you had any experience of people doing this? I'm wondering what the typical reaction is - To withdraw the FPN, push for court, give an extended deadline?

Thanks,
cheeseburgers
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Logician
post Sat, 10 Nov 2012 - 17:59
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No experience, in few cases is there any doubt about the offence. There is a danger that they take it to court immediately, but you could always chuck your cards in at that point and plead guilty if you do not want to defend the case in court. If you have explained why you have not paid the FPN, not simply failed to pay, you can put that forward as mitigation in a letter to the court pleading G.

This post has been edited by Logician: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 - 20:26


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Pancras
post Sun, 11 Nov 2012 - 06:25
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I am still of the opinion that where it is a No Entry with exceptions the offence is a non-endorsable one. So not withstanding the other aguement that the sign is non-compliant, even if it was compliant this is still the wrong ticket for the offence?
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