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[NIP Wizard] Fighting speed charges - was under 30mph
drjanmen
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:25
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2012
Date of the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A475 Llanwnen, Ceredigion
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Hello. I was forewarned of the speedcamera mobile unit by another motorist well in advance of the 30mph speed limit, around a bend, over the brow of a hill, and checked my speed which was 30mph. I then reduced my speed to between 25 and 30mph for the entire 30mph zone, passing the mobile speedcamera van on the way. I was confident that I was in the clear. I was astounded to get a NIP saying I was accused of doing 37mph. The camera van was parked behind a wall so that it was hidden until right on top of it. Likewise the camera operator would only have seen me as I passed him at an angle. I wrote to the Chief Constable with copy to Safety Camera Partnership explaining the facts and requesting photographic evidence (it does not identify me as the driver). I was obviously forced to state that I was the driver, ie incriminate myself, but had no choice. They offered me a COFP or Speed Awareness Course for £85 which I ignored. I now have a Magistrate's Court date for 5.9.12 which will be adjourned if I plead not guilty. I have told the CPS that I require the camera operator (not a police officer btw) to appear in court for questioning. The camera device is laser LTI 20.20 UltraLyte 1000 and Lastec recording system.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:25:55 +0000
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post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:25
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Logician
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:37
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As you have the photo, post it up here following the directions in the FAQs, and see if anyone can identify anything wrong with it.

There is no reason the van cannot be hidden and taking a reading at an angle would mean your speed would be recorded as lower than actual.


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glasgow_bhoy
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 22:40
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Why do you want the camera operator in court? I might be wrong- but if your found guilty this could lead to higher costs being asked for than if you didn't demand him to be there :/
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Jlc
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:06
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QUOTE (drjanmen @ Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:25) *
I wrote to the Chief Constable with copy to Safety Camera Partnership explaining the facts and requesting photographic evidence (it does not identify me as the driver). I was obviously forced to state that I was the driver, ie incriminate myself, but had no choice. They offered me a COFP or Speed Awareness Course for £85 which I ignored. I now have a Magistrate's Court date for 5.9.12 which will be adjourned if I plead not guilty. I have told the CPS that I require the camera operator (not a police officer btw) to appear in court for questioning. The camera device is laser LTI 20.20 UltraLyte 1000 and Lastec recording system.

This sounds like a perfectly normal way for them to process the case (self incrimination too). Other than 'I didn't do it' how do you plan to defend yourself as pleading NG could be very costly, especially if you are starting to form a technical case?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jimster
post Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:53
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QUOTE (drjanmen @ Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:25) *
Likewise the camera operator would only have seen me as I passed him at an angle.


You would probably have been spotted long before that







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sgtdixie
post Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 04:15
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You will receive the relevant photos in your evidence pack albeit you seem to imply you have seen it already. It is likely that the van caught you going away from it and that you accelerated towards the end of the limit. Post up the photos so experts can comment.

As has been said you need to have an idea why your speed is wrong. In general camera operators attend court regularly and are very polished and knowledgeable and will have the answers to most questions you can think of. The court will not acquit just on your assertion you were not speeding. The equipment if used correctly is accurate and approved and will be accepted as such.

Going to trial will be very costly but if you feel you never exceeded 30 mph you need to start on a technical defence.
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justforthepictur...
post Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 07:32
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QUOTE (drjanmen @ Mon, 30 Jul 2012 - 23:25) *
Hello. I was forewarned of the speedcamera mobile unit by another motorist well in advance of the 30mph speed limit, around a bend, over the brow of a hill, and checked my speed which was 30mph. I then reduced my speed to between 25 and 30mph for the entire 30mph zone, passing the mobile speedcamera van on the way. I was confident that I was in the clear. I was astounded to get a NIP saying I was accused of doing 37mph. The camera van was parked behind a wall so that it was hidden until right on top of it. Likewise the camera operator would only have seen me as I passed him at an angle. I wrote to the Chief Constable with copy to Safety Camera Partnership explaining the facts and requesting photographic evidence (it does not identify me as the driver). I was obviously forced to state that I was the driver, ie incriminate myself, but had no choice. They offered me a COFP or Speed Awareness Course for £85 which I ignored. I now have a Magistrate's Court date for 5.9.12 which will be adjourned if I plead not guilty. I have told the CPS that I require the camera operator (not a police officer btw) to appear in court for questioning. The camera device is laser LTI 20.20 UltraLyte 1000 and Lastec recording system. [/b]

It’s really quite common to read such claims regarding the positioning of enforcement vehicles, but I struggle to accept that such operations would be placed behind walls or bushes, when the equipment relies on a clear and uninterrupted line of sight to the target. You also add the angle issue, which if true, would have reduced the displayed speed of your vehicle due to something known as the ‘cosine effect’.

Is it possible you could post a Google Maps link to the exact location please, indicating where the enforcement vehicle was positioned and your direction of travel?


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'Speed Kills' simply means, hit something or someone fast enough and it will result in a fatality.
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CuriousOrange
post Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 09:01
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To be fair to the OP, they do say that they were sticking to 30mph or below before and throughout the entire 30mph limit through Llanwnnen. This isn't one of those 'I believe I was...' or 'I looked at my speedo when I saw the van' matters.

If I knew I hadn't got anywhere near 37 mph throughout a 30 mph limit yet I had someone claiming a speed gun had me doing just that, I'd want to challenge it, even if I didn't yet know why they were wrong. And I wouldn't know why they were wrong until I saw the evidence, and I can't see the evidence until I plead not guilty. So picking the OP up now for not knowing what their defence is going to be is a tad unfair.

@OP: As suggested, post up the photo and show us where the van was parked. You say you slowed well in advance of the start of the limit, but one obvious question is whether you started accelerating before the NSL signs at the end of the limit?



Oh, and as asked, your direction of travel...and also where you were when you were flashed by this other car. It has to be said that doing 30 mph along the NSL roads there is a little unusual.

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glasgow_bhoy
post Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 09:41
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QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 10:01) *
To be fair to the OP, they do say that they were sticking to 30mph or below before and throughout the entire 30mph limit through Llanwnnen. This isn't one of those 'I believe I was...' or 'I looked at my speedo when I saw the van' matters.

If I knew I hadn't got anywhere near 37 mph throughout a 30 mph limit yet I had someone claiming a speed gun had me doing just that, I'd want to challenge it, even if I didn't yet know why they were wrong. And I wouldn't know why they were wrong until I saw the evidence, and I can't see the evidence until I plead not guilty. So picking the OP up now for not knowing what their defence is going to be is a tad unfair.

I wouldn't say people are picking on the OP for this defence- just making sure he is aware that the bastards will ask for higher costs if they win.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 10:03
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The OP will also want the video of at least his section to try and understand why his car which was apparently doing 30 or less was clocked at 37.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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drjanmen
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:15
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QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Tue, 31 Jul 2012 - 10:01) *
To be fair to the OP, they do say that they were sticking to 30mph or below before and throughout the entire 30mph limit through Llanwnnen. This isn't one of those 'I believe I was...' or 'I looked at my speedo when I saw the van' matters.

If I knew I hadn't got anywhere near 37 mph throughout a 30 mph limit yet I had someone claiming a speed gun had me doing just that, I'd want to challenge it, even if I didn't yet know why they were wrong. And I wouldn't know why they were wrong until I saw the evidence, and I can't see the evidence until I plead not guilty. So picking the OP up now for not knowing what their defence is going to be is a tad unfair.

@OP: As suggested, post up the photo and show us where the van was parked. You say you slowed well in advance of the start of the limit, but one obvious question is whether you started accelerating before the NSL signs at the end of the limit?



Oh, and as asked, your direction of travel...and also where you were when you were flashed by this other car. It has to be said that doing 30 mph along the NSL roads there is a little unusual.


I was approx half a mile outside 30mph zone when I was flashed in NSL area (no streetlights etc). I must have braked first,on instinct, then checked speedo - 30mph. Next I saw 30mph sign with camera sign. Before I got there I reduced my speed to UNDER 30mph and kept it there the entire time until I exited the 30mph zone. I will check my speedo with satnav & road monitors but there MUST have been a technical fault with the speed camera/operation of some sort. I'm a complete novice at this but I must fight it because otherwise I could theoretically be travelling under 30mph and be zapped 4 times and get banned for doing NOTHING. These camers are not infallible but it's trying to prove that in court, I guess. I have requested DVD/video. All help gratefully received.
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captain swoop
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:40
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Looks like a good 'zap' what is the location? There appears to be something written on the road behind the car, that should help identify the spot. (google link?)
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mrh3369
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:43
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I would be interested to know what the markings on the road behind the car say.


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Edited as my IPhone thinks it knows best and changes my posts…
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The Rookie
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:48
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Using street view I went all the way through the 30 at LLanwnnen (not spelling difference) and the only place the photo looks like is just as you enter the 30 at the western end. Not convinced though ('ARAF SLOW' in lots of places on the road)


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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morrisman
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:52
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QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:43) *
I would be interested to know what the markings on the road behind the car say.


Looks like here http://goo.gl/maps/3Xs3C just inside the 30 limit, the writing is SLOW ARAF.
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captain swoop
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:52
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I went through the 30 zone through the village and couldn't see the banked virge with the overhanging trees
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morrisman
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 11:56
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:52) *
I went through the 30 zone through the village and couldn't see the banked virge with the overhanging trees


This link shows the dog fouling sigh on the left and the posts with the signage on the right

http://goo.gl/maps/dsAvv
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mrh3369
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:10
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I am also having trouble identifying the exact spot.

QUOTE (morrisman @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:52) *
I went through the 30 zone through the village and couldn't see the banked virge with the overhanging trees


This link shows the dog fouling sigh on the left and the posts with the signage on the right

http://goo.gl/maps/dsAvv



Yes that does seem to be the spot, within the signed 30 about 60m after 30 is writen on the road so it looks a good ping within the 30 zone.


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captain swoop
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:24
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well spotted, i was thinkingthe dog foulingsign looked to be on a telegraph pole. IT looks like the foreshortening of the telephoto lens makes the banks look higher. I can see the 'leaning' tree in the background and the speed signs are visible behind the car in the photograph above its roof.

This post has been edited by captain swoop: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:27
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Jlc
post Wed, 1 Aug 2012 - 12:27
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It will be almost certain that the 37mph reading is correct - the point of capture is going to be the important bit.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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