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PCN in Cardiff with Blue Badge
matchstick
post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:52
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Hi, hope someone can help with a Parking Ticket issued in December 2011. I had parked outside my sisters house (in my car) on a double yellow line in front of a bus stop, with my mum and her blue disabled badge.

On returning to the car it was dark and tipping down with rain, so as soon as I managed to get the kids in and drove away, I put the wipers on and caught something out of the corner of my eye coming off the windscreen. My son said it looked like a yellow ticket but wasn't sure. Couldnt stop anyway to look for a bit of paper in the rain so thought I should ring on Monday to the Council to check if I had been issued with a PCN.

With Xmas etc, it was January before I rang and was told, YES you had a PCN, and because of the delay it had gone from £35 to £70. Asked about appealing and was told to write in with details etc. I hand wrote a letter explaining the above with a copy of the badge number etc and said it was possible the badge had been left on the passenger seat instead of dashboard and could they waive the PCN or at least get it reduced to £35. This was the 10th January 2012.

I received a letter within a week saying it had been received and will be dealt with in due course.

Received a letter on the 26th April 2012 basically saying that the enforecment officer didnt see a badge, it wasnt displayed properly so they are satisfied that the PCN was served correctly and also would keep the penalty at £70. This really annoyed me, basically saying it was my word against the EO and they were not prepared to give me the benefit of the doubt.

I have now received a Notice to Owner (NtO) dated 11th June 2012. Not sure if I can post images directly here so I have provided links to photobucket. I have scanned all pages except the back of page 1 which says how to pay.

http://s1174.photobucket.com/albums/r609/matchstickman3/

I have to reply 11/07/12 to have an appeal considered. Any suggestions on what to write back to them with ?Reading other posts I can see that I should go back to the site and take pictures of the road markings and also the bus stop sign if there are any parking restrictions on there.

Thanks in advance for your help.



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...matchstick
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post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:52
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Neil B
post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:57
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Your deadline is 10th incidentally.

I take it they offered no pictures? Did you ask for or get the CEO notes?

We will need the original PCN.

Not looked at the NtO yet but you have used the right method to post images btw.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 11:57


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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matchstick
post Thu, 28 Jun 2012 - 13:55
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Thanks for the clarification on the deadline.

There are pictures on the photobucket link. Some of them are fuzzy, I assume from the original picture being taken in the rain.

I haven't asked for the CEO notes, didn't know that any were available. As I mentioned, the original PCN was lost when I put my wipers on. Is this something I could get a copy of in the meantime and extend the deadline for appeal ?

I noticed on the back of page 1 of the NtO (which I haven't scanned), it says if the representations are received in time and the Council do not reply within 56 days, then the notice will be cancelled. Does a similar time period apply to my original appeal on the 12th January ? I make it 105 days elapsed between them receiveing my appeal and them writing back to me.

Thanks


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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 29 Jun 2012 - 00:27
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Was the NTO received more than 6 months after the PCN?
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matchstick
post Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 21:16
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Hi.

As I mentioned, I havent seen the PCN, so should I request a copy ?

In the NtO, it says;

PCN dated 10/12/2011

NtO dated 11/06/2012

so by my reckoning, this makes it one day more than 6 months. I will take pictures of the bus stop tomorrow and scan the NtO as well. Advice very gratefully received, as the 10th of July is looming and I need to either pay, or get a reply in.

Many Thanks

Doh !

Just noticed I have scanned the NtO (which is on the link in my first post)

Any thoughts ?


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matchstick
post Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 22:06
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Just found this lovely post by Neil B.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...0&start=100

====================================

From what i gather so far, you already understand this >

1/. That date of notice and date of service are different.

2/. That under the legislation LLA 2003, you have 28 days beginning date of Notice to pay - BUT 28 days beginning date of service (later) to make reps.

-----
Then we have the contentious statement on the front of the PCN.

QUOTE
If you fail to pay the penalty charge or to make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice a charge certificate may be issued..


The sentence talks about two things; Making payment or making representations but it gives only one period of time.

The period given is correct for representations and wrong for payment. They should not be talking about both things in one sentence with one timescale.

The real period for payment is 28 days beginning date of the notice

So, the potential for prejudice is that anyone getting such a PCN is told they have longer to pay than they actually legally have - and it follows might then pay late.

====================================

If you see the scan of my NtO, it says;

This notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after the day of posting (as shown above) unless you can show that it was not.

Then it says;

NOTE: If you do not pay the penalty charge or make representations before the end of the 28 day period specified above (i.e. by 11/07/2012) the Council may increase the original penalty charge by 50% to £105 and take steps to enforce payment.

This seems to be exactly what Neil B. is talking about. That is two different dates are required on the NtO

NtO posted on 11th June 2012. 28 days from this date is the 9th July 2012.

NtO taken to have been served on 13th June 2012. 28 days from this date is the 11th July 2012 as stated in the NtO.

Could someone please check my dates and correct as needed. I would like some help in drafting a letter of appeal as well.

Thanks in advance.


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matchstick
post Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 22:45
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Re-reading my NtO, it says;

A penalty charge of £70 is now payable...not later than...the date on which this Notice is served

Neil B. said in his post that under the legislation LLA 2003, you have 28 days beginning date of Notice to pay.

Do you see the difference ? The NtO says date SERVED (which is the 13th June) but legislation says BEGINNING date of Notice (which is 11th June).

Does this mean that the NtO is contrary to legislation ?

(NUTS...Just realised that LLA is London Local Authority and not necessarily enforceable in Wales).

The acts qouted on the specific grounds for appeal are;

-Traffic Management Act 2004
-Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventons (2008) representations and appeals
-Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventons (2008) general provisions

Any more advice ?

This post has been edited by matchstick: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 22:54


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bama
post Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 23:37
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for a TMA reg 9 PCN they have six months from service of the PCN to serve the NTO
show us the PCN and the NTO - with the dates (obscure personal details on the images)

it sounds like they are outwith the dates even just going buy the creation date of the NTO.
makes you wonder how their admin/systems allow an out of date NTO (i.e. unlawful) to be created doesn't it ?

once we have confirmed the dates on the paperwork I am sure there will be some very nice text you can send the LA.
I can think of some smile.gif
maybe even copy to the head of legal/the section 151 officer smile.gif smile.gif


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Neil B
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 03:17
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QUOTE (matchstick @ Mon, 2 Jul 2012 - 23:06) *
Just found this lovely post by Neil B.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...0&start=100

====================================

From what i gather so far, you already understand this >

1/. That date of notice and date of service are different.

2/. That under the legislation LLA 2003, you have 28 days beginning date of Notice to pay - BUT 28 days beginning date of service (later) to make reps.

-----
Then we have the contentious statement on the front of the PCN.

QUOTE
If you fail to pay the penalty charge or to make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice a charge certificate may be issued..


The sentence talks about two things; Making payment or making representations but it gives only one period of time.

The period given is correct for representations and wrong for payment. They should not be talking about both things in one sentence with one timescale.

The real period for payment is 28 days beginning date of the notice

So, the potential for prejudice is that anyone getting such a PCN is told they have longer to pay than they actually legally have - and it follows might then pay late.

====================================

If you see the scan of my NtO, it says;

This notice will be taken to have been served on the second working day after the day of posting (as shown above) unless you can show that it was not.

Then it says;

NOTE: If you do not pay the penalty charge or make representations before the end of the 28 day period specified above (i.e. by 11/07/2012) the Council may increase the original penalty charge by 50% to £105 and take steps to enforce payment.

This seems to be exactly what Neil B. is talking about. That is two different dates are required on the NtO

NtO posted on 11th June 2012. 28 days from this date is the 9th July 2012.

NtO taken to have been served on 13th June 2012. 28 days from this date is the 11th July 2012 as stated in the NtO.

Could someone please check my dates and correct as needed. I would like some help in drafting a letter of appeal as well.

Thanks in advance.


Well, as you've realised in your other post, none of that applies to you as it concerned moving traffic legislation in London.

I think you should edit out those two posts so that anyone reading doesn't get confused about the real issues in your case.

----
As Mum and bama have said, it looks like the NtO is served out of time.

The six months is an absolute time limit both technically and in terms of them acting reasonably. For the latter, without good reason, it's way out of time. The 'technical' one day over just makes it easier.

--
In answer to your earlier question, no, there is no time limit on responding to informal challenges -- but still a requirement to act reasonably. It doesn't much matter now anyway.


QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 00:37) *
for a TMA reg 9 PCN they have six months from service of the PCN to serve the NTO
show us the PCN and the NTO - with the dates (obscure personal details on the images)


There's a photobucket link hidden in the middle of opening post. NtO confirms the dates.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 07:40
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Cardiff is in Wales, so forget all England-only regs.

What the hell are the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Wales) Regs 2008 (these are cited at the top of the NTO)? I cannot find any such regs.

I can find the The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) Regulations 2008, which came into effect on 31 March 2008, but these were revoked on 22 May 2008 by the The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (General Provisions) (Wales) (No. 2) Regulations 2008 - a bit of a c**k-up on the admin. front methinks.

In any event, those regs cited by the authority do not, IMO, exist. And so:

with what authority has the council served the NTO?
how would the recipient know whether it was compliant (in general terms) as they do not have any legal frame of reference.

In this case, the period of 6 months doesn't exist because it would appear in the cited regs.

And the NTO fails to comply with the "adjudication" regs because it doesn't mention that if the council reject reps an appeal may be made to an adj (or if it does, I cannot find it).

Procedural Impropriety I think.

HCA
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matchstick
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 12:44
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Thanks for the replies. I will scan the backs of the pages in my (late) lunch break. I also have some pictures of the bus stop where part of the double yellow line has a lump of mortar / cement over it.

Will get back to you all in about an hour.

Thanks again


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bama
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 14:33
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/wsi/2008/1214/contents/made


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 14:37
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Right, managed to get those scanned and uploaded. I've changed the titles a bit to make it easier to refer to.

Here is the link; http://s1174.photobucket.com/albums/r609/matchstickman3/

Pictures of bus stop don't show any parking signs but the prescence of a double yellow line makes it obvious "no parking here" I think. In picture Bus 4, it looks like the line has been ended correctly (with a car parked over it this morning).

Picture Bus 2 does show the double yellow obscured with cement. Would this be sufficient to challenge the NtO ?

I've added the NtO page 2 which shows the way to pay.

Also added the rejection letter which annoyed me so much, reject pages 1 and 2.

hcandersen - you mentioned the missing regulations. I too had difficulty finding all the sections they qouted, and an even harder time trying to find a 6 month limit between PCN and NtO. It does mention on NtO pg.2 about an independant adjuicator.

Also the dates you mentioned "31 March 2008, but these were revoked on 22 May 2008". How can they be revoked before they came into force ? Is this the c**k up you wrote ?

I look forward to replies when I get home tonight ! Cheers


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hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 14:37
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But these are not the regs referred to in the NTO. So, although they exist, the taxing question is: what's their relevance?


HCA
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bama
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 14:43
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typo in the NTO. smile.gif


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 15:00
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Does the typo then render the NtO invalid and if so, then which of the boxes with grounds for appeal would I tick ?

This post has been edited by matchstick: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 15:03


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bama
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 15:18
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Thats the $64k question.
If an 'independent adjudicator' made a finding of fact on that it would invalidate lots of NTOs.
For some reason (which can only speculate on) and based on seeing lots of cases on here it appears that the adjudicators are very loathe indeed to make a finding that broadens the scope beyond the single PCN as that kind of finding is very rare indeed despite numerous cases where such 'big points' are raised..
that doesn't mean its not usable, we have seen many times a case that has such a big point where it seems to the observer that some effort is made to find in favour of the appellant on some other lesser point that restricts the decision to just the scope of the PCN. and by finding for the appellant it means there is no recourse to Judicial Review so it 'kills the case'. The result being that the 'big point' does not get addressed and the council can carry on regardless. they may in the fullness of time correct the 'big point', then again they may not.

I call it 'Adjudicator chess' for a reason....

This post has been edited by bama: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 15:22


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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matchstick
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 16:11
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So if I use the 'BFG' (Big xxxx Gun) of a typo invalidating the NtO, they may hopefully decide to accept the lesser point in order to avoid creating a precedent ?

When I say lesser point I refer to the obscured yellow lines unless there is something else anyone can suggest.

This post has been edited by matchstick: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 16:17


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bama
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 16:28
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you would more than probably also have to raise the 'minor' points
still awhile yet to deadline for NTO response
gather together a draft set of reps and post them up for comment/refinement


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 3 Jul 2012 - 18:40
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OP.
The regulations which Cardiff quote at the top of their NTO (CEPR (Wales) General Regs 2008) don't exist - there have never been regs with that title. The original regs were made on 31 March 2008, but were clearly a legal disaster and so no sooner were they made, they were revoked by the (Amendment) regs which, as I understand it, are part of the suite of regs which govern parking enforcement in Wales. In England we have the General regs, The Appeals regs and regs for uniforms, adjudicators, penalties etc.

As far as your NTO is concerned, you are none the wiser about what regs apply and which provisions you are entitled to check to see that the process is being implemented correctly. And their letter dated 23 April is b******s because the TMA does not provide any legal basis for serving PCNs, it's only role in this regard is as enabling legislation which allows the SoS to make regs, and it's those regs which are elusive in Cardiff.

But the elephant in the room is that whatever regs apply will only provide 6 months from service of PCN to service of NTO, and you're beyond that so prima facie the NTO is void as the council does not have the legal power to serve it, even if it knew what regs apply.

HCA
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