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Speeding NIP when I wasnt !, What should I do?
promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:12
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Hi,

I received a NIP from 1st Nov stating I was doing 61MPH in my Van on a single carriageway.

Now I know for sure 100%, and my wife does too as she was sitting beside me, that I was only doing approx 50 mph.

I asked for the pictures and have just written Norfolk constabulary the following letter.


Norfolk Constabulary Safety Camera Enforcement Office.
Thank you for providing the Images for Offence Reference

The reason I requested them is because I am adamant that I was not travelling at the speed the equipment has recorded me at that time.



I saw the Safety Camera well before the image was taken at 13:57:00.

In fact, the car in front of me that can be seen in the image of 13:57:00, overtook me on the shaded area as I rounded the corner at the top of the hill, about 5/10 seconds or more before the image was taken.

I looked at my speedo, when I saw the Safety Van, and I was travelling at approx 50mph, so was unperturbed about my speed.

As you can see, by the time the1st image was taken, the car that overtook me at the top of the hill, is least 50-100 Metres in front of my van.



In my view the driver in front of me was travelling in excess of 60mph. I do not know if his speed was recorded by the van?

Is it possible that the signal has been reflected by the vehicle in front of me?

Or the low sunlight reflection of at that time of day?

Something is wrong?



My wife who was a passenger in the van at the time also saw the Safety camera Van at the top of the hill, and noted the speed of the vehicle in front. She too cannot believe we have been given a Notice of Intended Prosecution.

I notice that there is no speed or distance on the second image where my registration plate can be clearly seen.

I know the area very well and where the safety camera van was parked.



If the first Image was taken at 13:57:00 at 932 metres.(932m Taken from the image)

the second one at say 150-250 metres before the position of the safety van. (I have been to the site and measured it by pacing from the road markings where my van is pictured in the second image to the position the camera van sits, and estimate the distance at approx 200 meters.)

In this instance I will use the figure 150 metres from the distance of my van in the second image to the safety van.

Therefore In 34 seconds I covered 782 metres. (932-150 =782)

782 metres = (782 x(5/8) = 0.48875 miles

I covered that distance in 34 seconds = (34/3600)= 0.0094444 hours

Therefore speed to travel 0.48875 in 0.0094444 hours = 51.75 MPH approx.

If the distance of second image to Camera is 200metres then my av speed would have been 48.4 MPH approx



To get the figure of 61 mph I would have to travel from the first picture to the exact spot of the safety van which is (932 meters) 0.5825 miles in (34 secs) 0.009444.

0.5825/0.009444= 61.7 MPH

As you can see I did not, as the second picture proves I was well in front of the camera van 34 seconds later.

I hope this letter will highlight my concerns. Please can someone review the information from the camera on that day. Thankyou.



WHAT DO YOU THINK GUYS??????????

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 23:09
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post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:12
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morrisman
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:29
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Since the first image, probably the money shot, was taken at 932m I can not understand how you say you saw the camera van well before the image was taken nless you have extraordinary eyesight?

This post has been edited by morrisman: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:31
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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:53
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I have seen the camera Van there many times before....and not only I saw it....but my wife did too. Its easy to see a camera Van long distance with all its reflective signs.

Incidentally, the first image has a speed reading, but no details of my registration plate can be seen., only the image 34 seconds later shows my registration plate....but no speed details.

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 20:54
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Aretnap
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:00
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Camera vans use a laser device which takes an instantaneous speed, not an average one. Presumably you've been sent 2 pictures. One will be the ping shot which measured the speed (probably the first one at 932m); the second will be a later still from the DVD which gives a clearer view of the car/driver.

If the ping shot shows you doing 61mph then that's that. If you subsequently slowed down (many people do when the see vans - usually after it's too late) that's neither here nor there. So the fact that you averaged less than 61 over 932m (or whatever) is no help to you.

If you post up the pictures (with identifying details removed) we can confirm how good the ping is.

This post has been edited by Aretnap: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:02
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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:23
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Its ok saying that but you are missing my point......... I KNOW I WAS 100% DEFINITELY NOT DOING 61 MPH.

Even before the first Image/Speed was taken, I was about 1200 meters away when I saw the camera Van, I was doing 50 MPH.

Are you really telling me I saw the Camera Van then speeded up???????

Then they took my picture

Do I really sound that Dumb????

I will post the image

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:26
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jobo
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:32
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no not dumb but if you can see a camera van three quarters of a mile away youve bloody good eyes


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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:40
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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:43
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Looks like bad news for you.


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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:49
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Ok I have good eyes...then so does my Missus cause she clearly saw it as we rounded corner at top of hill as you can see in pic.

Note, the Car in front of me overtook me at the top of the Hil on the chevronsl..... see how far it is in front of me.

Can I request to see the full video ????



Thanks moderator... but surely they cant get away with this??????????

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:49
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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:50
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QUOTE (promethian @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:46) *
Can I request to see the full video ????


You can but they're under no obligation to give it to you. You're only entitled to disclosure if you reject any course/FPN offered and go to court and plead not guilty. Even then you have no automatic entitlement to the video and will have to justify your request for it.

QUOTE
Thanks moderator... but surely they cant get away with this??????????


Yes. Taking an objective view we have an approved speed measurement device that records your speed at 61mph with no obvious errors. On the other, we have you and maybe your wife (could she see the speedo?) who say you weren't doing that speed. I know which one the court is most likely to believe.


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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 21:59
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Thanks Southpaw....

I will have to think very carefully about this.

Do I go to court and tell the truth......

Or accept a Fixed penalty for something I didn't do?

I'll try and ask for the video for a start..... rejection doesn't hurt.

when I rang up the office, I didnt ask for the images....they offered them to me... so its worth a try I suppose.


This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:00
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Logician
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:25
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Were you doing 50 as you came round that bend? Could it be the case that you rounded the bend at a higher speed, then looked to see if the van was in position, recognised that it was, instinctively slowed down, then looked at your speedo? That is likely to be what the court thinks happened, however convincing you are as a witness, since they will have evidence from an approved speed measurement device in front of them.

The other thing to consider is that Norfolk offers Speed Awareness Courses for that speed which would mean you got no points on your licence, but if you opt for court you will not get offered that or a fixed penalty, you risk the higher fines based on income imposed by a court. Actually it is hardly a risk, it is more of a near certainty.


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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:32
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I was definetly doing 50 when I came round that bend.

The car you can see in front of me in the image overtook me on that bend (yes illegally as he crossed the chevron area at the top of the bend) and was doing approx 20 MPH faster than me.

I didn't slow down at all, as I was doing 50, and noticed I was doing 50, BEFORE the image was taken.

You can see how far in front of me the car that overtook me was when the image was taken, his car is partially covered by the readouts below my Van.

The reason we both remeber it so well, was the speed the car in front of me was doing....... Imagiune my shock when I got a NIP!!!!!!!!

I saw the camera Van as he overtook me.....and the wife did too( She always sees them miles ahead)

I understand what you are saying re Speed awareness etc.........

BUT I WAS DEFINETLY NOT SPEEDING....... so it all seems unfair etc to me.

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:37
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Logician
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:37
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Well, good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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mrh3369
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:38
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Forget the car overtaking you as it has no bearing, the ping on your van looks about as good as they get at that distance and there is no other vehicle in the crosshairs so the reading is from your van.


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captain swoop
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:39
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If it's any consolation the car would have got a NIP as well.
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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:47
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The reading does not correlate to the speed my Van was doing 100% no argument..... and the wife saw my speedo too....she,s always looking to see if I might be going to fast as she is the worlds best back seat driver.

Something is wrong here, and maybe if they give me the video I will be able to prove it.

I thought I might get some support here...?

I have a clean license and I am not trying to pull a fast one(sic)

This post has been edited by promethian: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:48
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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:50
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QUOTE (promethian @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 22:47) *
I thought I might get some support here...?


You would if you had a reasonable case. From what you've presented so far, you don't. The best advice to give you is to accept the course/FPN. That's an objective view.


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promethian
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 23:02
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I understand what your saying... but what if it happens again next week.
I travel down this road 2/3 times a week, what if next week I'm doing 50 again and I get another NIP that tells me I was doing over 60 again.
What if loads of people got NIPs that day they didn't deserve and everyone just pays them.

Does everyone just roll over and die?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 23:11
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QUOTE (promethian @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 23:02) *
Does everyone just roll over and die?


No but those who choose to fight almost always have a better hand than you do. I don't think anyone is telling you not to fight but rather pointing out that you have a very small chance of winning.


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