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Bus lane penalty charge notice - Help needed
gquantock
post Tue, 25 Oct 2011 - 07:51
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I have just received a bus lane penalty charge notice through the post, there are photographs accompanying the letter which show the registration etc.

It has come from Leeds City Council

Is there anything I can do about this?

thanks

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post Tue, 25 Oct 2011 - 07:51
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Neil B
post Tue, 25 Oct 2011 - 10:59
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yep, you can start by showing us ALL of everything you have received.

See FAQs 'Read this first' on how t post images.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 - 10:59


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gquantock
post Thu, 3 Nov 2011 - 17:30
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Please see below everything i have received.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks for your help
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Bus_lane_fine.pdf ( 773.33K ) Number of downloads: 671
 
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Neil B
post Thu, 3 Nov 2011 - 20:51
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it's invalid - legally that is.

Wrong perid in which to pay the discount.

Cannot be enforced.

No time to explain at mo - laterz - or someone else might explain.


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gquantock
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 10:51
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What do I need to do then?

do I just ignore it?

can you help?
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gquantock
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 11:32
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i have put together a response - can someone please let me know if this is correct to send given the circumstances? any comments would be great.

thanks

Gav


I am in receipt of the above referenced penalty charge notice and wish to make the following representations in respect of same:

1) That the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The PCN issued by Leeds City Council (LCC) fails to comply with, The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, regulation 8(5) and specifically with regulations, 8(5)(e), 8(5)(g) and 8(5)(k) as it fails to correctly and with certainty, inform the recipient of the lawful periods for payment, for making representations and for enforcement via Charge Certificate. The relevant regulations are quoted below:

"(5) A penalty charge notice must state
(e) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the 28 day period;
(f) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;
(g) that representations may be made, on any of the statutory grounds of appeal, to the authority against the imposition of the penalty charge but that representations made outside the 28 day period may be disregarded;
(k) that if at the end of the 28 day period—
(i) no representations have been made; and
(ii) the penalty charge has not been paid,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by a half and take steps to enforce payment of the charge as so increased;"

The 28 day period is defined within the regulations in regulation 7 and is defined as follows:

"7.
In this Part—
"the 28 day period", in relation to a penalty charge notice, means the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice."

Nowhere on the PCN is this mandatory information given.

Further the PCN states that ‘You make make representations to Leeds City Council as to why this penalty charge should not be paid. These representations should be made not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the Noctice is sserved and any representations which are made outside of that period maybe disregarded" yet the 28 day period referred to is completely undefined.

The penalty charge notice issued by LCC fails to comply with the above mentioned regulations in that rather than specifying the 28 day periods as prescribed in law it provides in all instances a comment of within 28days.

2. The PCN issued by Leeds City Council (LCC) also fails to comply with, The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, regulation 8(5) and specifically with regulation, 8(5)(f), as it fails to correctly and with certainty, inform the recipient of the lawful period for payment of the penalty charge at the discounted rate.

(5) A penalty charge notice must state—

(f) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;

The penalty charge notice issued by LCC fails to comply with the above mentioned regulation in that rather than specifying the 14 day period as prescribed in law it provides a date of Saturday 6th November 2011, this date is calculated from a presumed date of service that LCC cannot know at the time of issue/posting for the reasons as stated in point 1) above.

However even if the date is calculated by the methodology used by LCC based on the date of service being the second working day after the date of issue/posting, the date provided is incorrect and unlawfully extends the period of time prescribed in law for payment at the discounted rate by a period of 2 (two) days.

As stated above date of posting of the PCN is 24th October 2011, therefore the calculated date of service is Friday 26th October 2011. This makes the end of the 14 day discount period Wednesday 9th November 2011 and not Saturday 6th November 2011 as stated on the PCN by LCC.

With respect to both points 1) and 2) of these representations LCC have failed in their statutory duty to ensure that the PCN they have issued to me is compliant with the legislation under which it is issued, I contend that the PCN is so fatally flawed that it is a nullity in law and any attempt on the part of LCC to pursue this matter further would be ultra vires.

The need for certainty in the payment periods has been establish in the High Court and I refer to the binding ruling of Jackson J in R v The Parking Adjudicator (ex p Barnet) , who at paragraph 39 states:

"There are good policy reasons why PCNs should comply with the statutory requirements. These documents are issued in large numbers. They often change hands. A PCN may for example, be issued to a driver on one date and handed to the owner on a later date. When a PCN reaches the owner, he or she may wish to pay the discounted charge. There must always be certainty about the date when the notice was issued and the dates when the various periods for payment will expire."

Jackson J, further goes on to state with respect to statutory compliance, in R v The Parking Adjudicator (ex p Barnet), paragraph 41:

"Mr Lewis submits that even if there was non-compliance in this respect, nevertheless no prejudice was caused, PCNs should not be regarded as invalid. I do not accept this submission. Prejudice is irrelevant and does not need to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise."

In the event that these representations are rejected I will require the enforcement authority to fully explain in their Notice of Rejection how their "PCN" complies with the above mentioned regulations. I will have no hesitation in taking this matter to adjudication, where I will be making a request for costs on the grounds that the enforcement authority have acted vicariously and wholly unreasonably in not accepting valid representations at the earliest opportunity. I will also be respectfully requesting the that adjudicator is minded to make recommendations in his adjudication with respect to all previous and pending PCNs that LCC have unlawfully issued under The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005.
The PCN should therefore be cancelled on this basis and I should be obliged if you would provide written confirmation that this is the case.

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Neil B
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 13:53
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You've just c&p'd a large chunk of detailed reps that DON'T apply to your case!!!!

submit that and you'll confuse matters dangerously! Your case is much simpler.

You posted an image of your PCN less than 24 hrs ago - then this?
QUOTE (gquantock @ Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 10:51) *
What do I need to do then?

do I just ignore it?

can you help?


Erm, a bit of patience may be in order!?

Did I not say this >>>>>

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 3 Nov 2011 - 20:51) *
No time to explain at mo - laterz

You have a slam dunk easy win - but give us some space mate! You are not the only one seeking help.

Again ----- - laterz. Meaning when I get a feckin moment to save your £60.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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gquantock
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 14:41
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Apologies !!!!

Mrs was on my case about it.. thanks for your help.

Will wait for your reply.

cheers

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Neil B
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 14:53
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from the other Leeds case running ahead of you >>

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 14:50) *
ok - basics.

PCNs must comply with the law - particularly in giving you certain info - accurately.

Yours gets a crucial bit wrong.

Link to Regs listing mandatory content. >> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/27...gulation/8/made

and a quote of the part that is wrong >>>>

(5) A penalty charge notice must state—

(a)the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;

(b)the detection date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;

©the reasons why the authority believe that a penalty charge is payable;

(d)the amount of the penalty charge;

(e)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the 28 day period;

(f)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;

(g)that representations may be made, on any of the statutory grounds of appeal, to the authority against the imposition of the penalty charge but that representations made outside the 28 day period may be disregarded;

(h)what are the statutory grounds of appeal;

(i)the postal address to which representations are to be sent;

etc, etc.


Your PCN says -- ''14 days beginning with the date on this PCN''.

It's a really bad and incompetent mistake.

Your PCN is presumed served in two working days = 21/10 - but they nly give 14 days beginning 19/10. Clearly to your disadvantage and unlawful.

It seems this mistake may be on ALL Leeds BL PCNs.

----------------

In making reps it is a good idea to open with a brief human angle before nuking them with this technicality.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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gquantock
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 15:11
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great stuff thanks for this, really appreciate it

so I assume I just write a letter back to them quoting the bit that you put below and then say that I believe it is unlawful and request they drop it?

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Neil B
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 15:36
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QUOTE (gquantock @ Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 15:11) *
great stuff thanks for this, really appreciate it

so I assume I just write a letter back to them quoting the bit that you put below and then say that I believe it is unlawful and request they drop it?


yeah but note my last sentence.

Councils act very intransigently to solely tech reps - so include some bollox excuse and maybe a plea for discretion. useful tactic as it gives them an 'out' where they don't have to admit their PCN is seriously legally flawed.

------------
Incidentally - the stills on the PCN. Do they clearly show the vehicle in contravention, including the relevant signage?

If not - it is interesting - they are supposed to offer them -- alongside that offer of viewing the vid. Yours doesn't make that offer so technically flawed again - although clearly they are relying on the pics on the PCN. Interesting.

let's assume they don't prove a contravention --- sooooo --- even though they haven't offered --- ask for 'such still images which you believe establish the contravention.'
as is your right under Reg 8 >>

(5) A penalty charge notice must state—

(n)that the recipient may, by notice in writing to the authority, request them—

(i)to make available at an office of theirs specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him and by his representative (if any), the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or

(ii)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

(6) Where the recipient of the notice makes a request under paragraph (5)(m), the authority shall comply with the request within a reasonable time.

that will be quite funny if they respond by saying 'we already have' - and then the images on PCN don't achieve that.
just an additional bullet.
------------
Note - previous quote of Regs re mandatory content of PCN was also from Reg 8 - for reference.


-----------

read around the forum and see several varying cases of all kinds. get to grips with how things work and Councils respond, i.e. -- expect to be rejected -- but do not surrender this easy one!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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gquantock
post Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 15:41
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Ok great stuff. really really appreciated.

they simply show my car registration but thats all.. you can see road markings on the tarmac behind my car that says taxi/bus but it is really faint.

I will draft the letter and repost it for review.

thanks again



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gquantock
post Mon, 7 Nov 2011 - 10:53
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PLEASE SEE REVISED RESPONSE - I LOOK FORWARD TO ANY COMMENTS.



I have received the bus lane penalty charge notice from Leeds City Council last week.
Can I apologise for going the down the bus lane, this was a genuine mistake by me and I can only apologise for this mistake.
I didn’t realise that it was a bus lane when I turned down boar lane. I was unsure of another way to go to get to the M62 motorway to get back to my home in [xxxxxxxx].

From the legislation that governs PCNs “http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/27...gulation/8/made”
(5) A penalty charge notice must state—
(a)the registration mark of the vehicle involved in the alleged contravention;
(b)the detection date and the time at which the alleged contravention occurred;
©the reasons why the authority believe that a penalty charge is payable;
(d)the amount of the penalty charge;
(e)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the 28 day period;
(f)that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half;
(g)that representations may be made, on any of the statutory grounds of appeal, to the authority against the imposition of the penalty charge but that representations made outside the 28 day period may be disregarded;
(h)what are the statutory grounds of appeal;
(i)the postal address to which representations are to be sent;
(j)any electronic mail address or FAX number to which representations may be sent as an alternative to the postal address;
(k)that if at the end of the 28 day period—
(i)no representations have been made; and
(ii)the penalty charge has not been paid,
the authority may increase the penalty charge by a half and take steps to enforce payment of the charge as so increased;
(l)the manner in which the penalty charge may be paid;
(m)that if the representations are rejected an appeal may be made on any of the statutory grounds of appeal may be made to an adjudicator in respect of a penalty charge; and
(n)that the recipient may, by notice in writing to the authority, request them—
(i)to make available at an office of theirs specified by him, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by him and by his representative (if any), the record of the contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed; or
(ii)to provide him, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the contravention.

The penalty charge notice issued by LCC fails to comply with the above mentioned regulation in that rather than specifying the 14 day period as prescribed in law it provides a date of 1 November 2011, this date is calculated from a presumed date of service that LCC cannot know at the time of issue/posting for the reasons as stated above.
However even if the date is calculated by the methodology used by LCC based on the date of service being the second working day after the date of issue/posting, the date provided is incorrect and unlawfully extends the period of time prescribed in law for payment at the discounted rate by a period of 2 (two) days.
On this basis, the PCN is presumed to be served in two working days from the 19th October 2011, which is the 21 October 2011. However I only have 14days from the 19th October 2011 which is 1 November 2011

With respect to this point LCC have failed in their statutory duty to ensure that the PCN they have issued to me is compliant with the legislation under which it is issued, I contend that the PCN is so fatally flawed that it is a nullity in law and any attempt on the part of LCC to pursue this matter further would be ultra vires.

The need for certainty in the payment periods has been establish in the High Court and I refer to the binding ruling of Jackson J in R v The Parking Adjudicator (ex p Barnet) , who at paragraph 39 states:

"There are good policy reasons why PCNs should comply with the statutory requirements. These documents are issued in large numbers. They often change hands. A PCN may for example, be issued to a driver on one date and handed to the owner on a later date. When a PCN reaches the owner, he or she may wish to pay the discounted charge. There must always be certainty about the date when the notice was issued and the dates when the various periods for payment will expire."

Jackson J, further goes on to state with respect to statutory compliance, in R v The Parking Adjudicator (ex p Barnet), paragraph 41:

"Mr Lewis submits that even if there was non-compliance in this respect, nevertheless no prejudice was caused, PCNs should not be regarded as invalid. I do not accept this submission. Prejudice is irrelevant and does not need to be established. The 1991 Act creates a scheme for the civil enforcement of parking control. Under this scheme, motorists become liable to pay financial penalties when certain specified statutory conditions are met. If the statutory conditions are not met, then the financial liability does not arise."

In the event that these representations are rejected I will require the enforcement authority to fully explain in their Notice of Rejection how their "PCN" complies with the above mentioned regulations. I will have no hesitation in taking this matter to adjudication, where I will be making a request for costs on the grounds that the enforcement authority have acted vicariously and wholly unreasonably in not accepting valid representations at the earliest opportunity. I will also be respectfully requesting the that adjudicator is minded to make recommendations in his adjudication with respect to all previous and pending PCNs that LCC have unlawfully issued under The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005.
The PCN should therefore be cancelled on this basis and I should be obliged if you would provide written confirmation that this is the case.
Kind regards


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Neil B
post Mon, 7 Nov 2011 - 11:06
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One last time. STOP copying reps from cases that do not relate to yours in terms of the errors made - AND then fail to edit them properly anyway (1/11/11 ??????)

See the other Leeds case for well written reps recently >>> http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66038

-


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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gquantock
post Mon, 7 Nov 2011 - 11:42
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Neil

Apologies for this

I have now seen the other thread and will use that wording and amend the particulars of what happened etc.

thanks for your help

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Neil B
post Mon, 7 Nov 2011 - 11:44
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Ok cool. GL.

Let us know response.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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gquantock
post Mon, 28 Nov 2011 - 20:08
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Leeds has rejected my representations - please see attached the letter i have received from them

Does anyone have any comments on this

regards


Please see page 2 of the letter

regards

Attached File(s)
Attached File  Document__1_.pdf ( 167.49K ) Number of downloads: 179
 
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Neil B
post Mon, 28 Nov 2011 - 21:26
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LOL.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry648197

Identical rejection as far as you've shown.

Only seeing first page?


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gquantock
post Fri, 2 Dec 2011 - 12:23
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Neil

Many thanks for this. the second page of the letter is exactly the same as the previous post.

what is the next step for this then with regards to appealing etc
thanks for help
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Neil B
post Fri, 2 Dec 2011 - 13:49
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QUOTE (gquantock @ Fri, 2 Dec 2011 - 12:23) *
Neil

Many thanks for this. the second page of the letter is exactly the same as the previous post.


I don't understand? Your pdf above has no second page? Are you saying it is identical to the other guy?

In terms of what to do -- follow him - he seems to have the right idea. Leeds are talking rubbish -- but it's fairly important you understand why/how.


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