PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

towing with an Aframe, towing with an Aframe
bloody fuming
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 14:05
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 2 Oct 2008
Member No.: 22,947



Hi guys and girls, heres my tale of woe, which someone might be able to help out after all a trouble shared is a trouble laughed at.



i was travelling along the motorway with a smart car on an unbraked Aframe (BOLTED ON TO THE CAR,NOT CHAiNED ON VERSION), well the reason i was towing such car was that the engine was knackered, and already removed and was already at my workshop, so im going along the motorway when an avon and Somerset policeman pulls up beside me, he takes some good looks at the van that i was driving and the smart car and the Aframe, he indicated to me to pull over.

I pulled over as requested and the policeman politely asked for my documents,i explained the engine wasnt present hence me towing it and all gearbox/wiring/removed and boxed up in the car, He then starts to look for the sticker that shows the maximum gross weight of the smart, we couldnt find it (found it afterwards 990kg), he asks me to wait whilst he googles "smart car" comes back and invites me to sit in his car, he explains that a smart car weighs maximum theoretical weight is 1200kg, and as such because there is no connection from when my vehicles brakes and the car im towing and it weighs over 750kg then the brakes are defective,

he gave me the ticket 3 points and £60 fine, could have used his descretion i though, but then said i assume you will be getting off the motorway at the next exit, i agreed to, he said it would take hime 5 minutes to complete the paperwork and then he would be travelling north at 50mph, he said if you set off now and travel at 60 mph our paths would never meet again, so i drove straight to rent a trailer to take the car home "legally",receipt to prove

I then took the car to a local scrapyard where the car with the Aframe attached was weighed, 720kg, took photo's and print out from the weigh bridge,


i returned home and called the police officer who still said that he said the ticket still stands due to the sticker which say 990kg which is the theoretical maximum mass (which is the complete car with 2 persons and full tank of petrol and luggage) i did explain that the car wasnt the weight that he says it is,i also added if i had a smart sheel with only wheels attached would i be comitting an offence, yes he said, wouldnt you take it to a weighbridge? i asked, we dont have time to take everyone to a weighbridge.

So explored the net and the Dept of Transport stated that a motor car becomes a trailer once the aframe is fitted, and as such am i right in also saying that the sticker is no longer applicable as its no longer a car.i was going to use this as my main defence

Furthermore as the trailer weighs under 750kg it doesnt need brakes, but it also states if they are fitted they must work, but this isnt what the policeman is trying to do me for.


Also when you get the definition of a motor vehicle/car it states........A self-propelled wheeled conveyance, such as a car or truck, with the engine and drivetrain missing it no longer qualifies as a motor vehicle.

Please can someone help as there is much of a grey area, and i need some confidence from you guys, cheers Nik


BTW i have already sent off the ticket to say im not guilty, and to be heard by a court

This post has been edited by bloody fuming: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 15:07
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
11 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 14:05
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 14:27
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



this gets very very complicated and im going out in a bit, so will need to leave you all to it,

but id say you have a case,

the 750kg relates not to cars but to trailer, , the point that it becomes a trailer isnt necessarily in your favor the question then becomes if it relates to the plated weight or the actual weight

il see how far youve got when i return from my walk


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 14:44
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



nb what actual offence is on the ticket ?


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bloody fuming
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 15:11
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 2 Oct 2008
Member No.: 22,947



there is no offence code, which im sure it should, but written down it says "trailer defective brakes", and thats it
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rallyman72
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 15:46
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,562
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
From: No longer on a train
Member No.: 3,385



I recall that the criteria for trailers is not what they weigh in the state in which they are inspected by the Police (or VOSA) but the maximum possible weight of the complete trailer and load.

What I mean is that my flatbed trailer weighs 400kg unloaded and has a maximum payload of 1200kg. As far as the law is concerned even the unloaded trailer has to be treated as weighing the maximum of 1600kg for needing brakes etc and also for towing limits on the towing vehicle. So, whilst in theory, a vehicle limited to towing 1200kg could tow my unladen trailer it would, in fact, be illegal.

DFT consider that fitting an A frame to a car turns it into a trailer but it then becomes subject to trailer regulations and if it is capable of being loaded to more than 750kg it will need brakes. These can be of the overrun type or by a connection to the towing vehicle brake system, neither of these are possible with an A frame so the assumption is that any towing on an A frame is unbraked and below 750kg is the only legal weight. The problem here is that your 'trailer' will have a plate with a maximum or gross vehicle weight on it and that is what the law looks at in the absence of a proper trailer plate. If that plate is not present then the manufacturer weights will be used. The kerb weight of a Smart for Two is 730kg but you have to add the weight of 2 adults and luggage to this to arrive at the maximum weight.


--------------------
The accident was caused by cockpit thrombosis - a dangerous clot between seatback and steering wheel ...

1. Read this first
2. Nip Wizard
Parking tickets - council - 0, Rallyman - 1
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 15:56
Post #6


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 24,213
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



A trailer with a [plated] gross vehicle weight of over 750kg requires braking, and any trailer made since 1982 must be clearly marked with its maximum gross weight in kilogrammes.

If the car is deemed to be the trailer, unless it is braked it would have to have a plated GVW of 750kg. If it has a GVW of over 750kg, it would need to be braked.

I believe that there is an exception for 'recovery', but not for 'transportation'. I suspect that if you have a defence it would lie in an exception for recovery.
edit: Unless the A frame was considered to be the trailer *and* it was marked with a GVW between 720kg and 750kg.

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 16:17


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bloody fuming
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:22
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 2 Oct 2008
Member No.: 22,947



so the fact that the car is no longer a car once the a frame is attached, surely means that the manufacturers GVW is not applicable,

i see what your saying rallyman but what if im towing said trailer that has a GVW of 2000kg and an unloaded weight of 720kg im commiting an offence, when its clear to see im doing nothing wrong,innocent until proved guilty.

lol, quite funny really, i would have prefered to be escorted to a weighbridge, not given 3 points and a £60 fine and told to carry on my journey

This post has been edited by bloody fuming: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cieranc
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:35
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 809
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Member No.: 5,532



Ahhh this is my specialist subject!

A difficult defence there Andy, to qualify for recovery it needs to be either on a registered recovery vehicle (spec lift), which carries an exemption to the relevent part of the C+U regs, or if an A frame is used it must only be to a place of safety to get a CAR OFF the motorway.
Mr Fuming, we need to know where you set off from, where you were stopped, and where you were heading. If you JOINED the motorway with it on the A frame (which I presume you did), then the 'insufficient brakes' offence stands.

Likewise, VOSA see the actual kerb weight of a TRAILER as an irrelevence (unless they're persuing an overloaded prosecution), in their eyes the weight of a trailer is not what it actually weighs, its what its GVW is.
As there is a sticker in the TRAILER stating the GVW is 990kgs (and a max technical weight of 1200), VOSA/Police/Court will take it as being the trailer's weight, and the 'insufficient brakes' offence stands.

The laws around this type of offence are complicated, and I strongly believe that if this went to court then the Police will enrol VOSA to advise/present their argument. If it were I in this situation, (bear in mind I have a thorough understanding of recovery legislation), I would quietly accept the fixed penalty.
The Police are tame, VOSA are not. I would strongly advise against presenting the opportunity for VOSA to get involved!

QUOTE (bloody fuming @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:22) *
so the fact that the car is no longer a car once the a frame is attached, surely means that the manufacturers GVW is not applicable,

No, the manufacturer has tested the car/trailer/vehicle/contraption and had it type approved with them weights. The fact it's no longer being used as a car is irrelevent, the running gear is still rated the same.
If Mercedes built that Smart Car exctly the same but type approved it as a trailer and not a car, those weights would be the same.

The Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is the maximum permissable weight in accordance with the type approval.
The Max Technical Weight is the maximum weight that the vehicle could operate at if working outside the type approval or C+U regs.
Vehicles that operate outside the C+U regs (our heavy wreckers for example, some mobile cranes or heavy haulage tractors) are listed as special types and can legally operate at the manufacturers Max Technical Weight, rather than the lower Gross Vehicle Weight.

In any event, for this defence to be valid, you would have to have notified DVLA of the 'change of use' for the vehicle/carriage (section 4 on the V5C???), and as it'd be an unusual change, a trip to the VOSA station would be most likely, for them to inspect the vehicle. I'd be very suprised if you've done this just to scrap it!

This post has been edited by cieranc: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:50


--------------------
"You won't like me when I'm angry. Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources."

The Credible Hulk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:43
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



QUOTE (cieranc @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 18:35) *
Ahhh this is my specialist subject!

A difficult defence there Andy, to qualify for recovery it needs to be either on a registered recovery vehicle (spec lift), which carries an exemption to the relevent part of the C+U regs, or if an A frame is used it must only be to a place of safety to get a CAR OFF the motorway.


thats not actually true mate, there is no restriction on how far away the place of safety actually is, there is however a restriction on towing on a motorway, but thats not what he has been charged with


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bloody fuming
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:03
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 2 Oct 2008
Member No.: 22,947



cheers for all the input guys/girls, its all good reading

i was driving from Burnham on Sea and was heading north to Bristol

hopefully someone might offer a glimmer of hope as ive already said im not guilty, still shouldnt there be a offence code on my ticket and off the record telling me to carry on my journey if i wish isnt on.... sleepless nights to follow

BTW officer was a right know it all....... oops


just a thought shouldnt there be an unladen weight be displayed on a trailer,


and as there is no drivetrain fitted and the officer was told this, it no longer qualifies for being a motor vehicle thus making the maunfacturers GVW not applicable????

This post has been edited by bloody fuming: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:13
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:12
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



there is a dispensation for moving broken down cars to a place of safety, but no definition of what is broken down or what a place of safety means, though a great deal of opinion, if you can convince a court thats what you were doing you have a defence


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cieranc
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:16
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 809
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Member No.: 5,532



QUOTE (bloody fuming @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:22) *
but what if im towing said trailer that has a GVW of 2000kg and an unloaded weight of 720kg im commiting an offence,


If it has a GVW of 2000kgs, then it must be fully braked. This means all wheels must be braked. If you then run it at 720kgs, the trailer must still be braked, as it's still a 2 ton trailer (as above, the VOSA aint interested in the unladen weight, just the GVW).

Some folk still believe them towing dollies (where you put the front wheels of the car onto the dolly, such as the AA use) are legal for distance recoveries because the dolly wheels are braked.
But as the back wheels of the car are unbraked it does not constitute a fully braked trailer. As such, although inherently much safer than an A frame, a towing dolly can only be used in the same manner as an A frame, recover to a place of safety only, and not ONTO the motorway.


--------------------
"You won't like me when I'm angry. Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources."

The Credible Hulk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cieranc
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:35
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 809
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Member No.: 5,532



QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 20:12) *
there is a dispensation for moving broken down cars to a place of safety, but no definition of what is broken down or what a place of safety means,


True. The law actually states a 'reasonable place of safety', though reasonable is not defined. You could convince the court that towing a car 30 miles to a place of safety is reasonable. You could convince them that towing a loaded petrol tanker 200 miles to it's depot to be unloaded is reasonable, as it may be the nearest depot capable of handling the load. I doubt you could convince the court that towing a car 200 miles is reasonable.
And I'd be amazed if you could convince them towing a car ONTO the motorway to get it to a place of safety is reasonable.

I'm fairly sure that its actually states you can't tow a car onto the motorway, I'm not in the office so can't look it up. I'll dig it out later in the week and confirm/dismiss.
There have been cases where people have been prosecuted for doing just this, It'll take some digging but I'll try and find them out.


--------------------
"You won't like me when I'm angry. Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources."

The Credible Hulk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:39
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



QUOTE (cieranc @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 19:35) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 20:12) *
there is a dispensation for moving broken down cars to a place of safety, but no definition of what is broken down or what a place of safety means,


True. The law actually states a 'reasonable place of safety', though reasonable is not defined. You could convince the court that towing a car 30 miles to a place of safety is reasonable. You could convince them that towing a loaded petrol tanker 200 miles to it's depot to be unloaded is reasonable, as it may be the nearest depot capable of handling the load. I doubt you could convince the court that towing a car 200 miles is reasonable.
And I'd be amazed if you could convince them towing a car ONTO the motorway to get it to a place of safety is reasonable.

I'm fairly sure that its actually states you can't tow a car onto the motorway, I'm not in the office so can't look it up. I'll dig it out later in the week and confirm/dismiss.
There have been cases where people have been prosecuted for doing just this, It'll take some digging but I'll try and find them out.


NO your inventing a distance restriction that doesnt exist, its A place of safety not the nearest place of safety, even if we knew what safety is ?


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bloody fuming
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 20:07
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35
Joined: 2 Oct 2008
Member No.: 22,947



well i did say to the officer that it had broken down with a knackered engine, albeit removed,so i'll go that route maybe
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cieranc
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 22:52
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 809
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Member No.: 5,532



Problem there is it was already in a place of safety (your workshop where you removed the engine).
To put it on an A frame to move from a place of safety to another destination doesn't constitute recovery, therefore the brake issue still stands.

This is the reason why professional recovery operators have their trucks on the O license, when there is no requirement to do so for recovery alone.

If I recover a crashed/broken down vehicle off the motorway and back to base, that's recovering it to a place of safety, for a registered recovery vehicle no O license is required for this.

If 5 days later I load that same car onto the same truck and deliver it to a bodyshop/garage, that's no longer recovery, just general haulage, and as such O license and tacho required.


--------------------
"You won't like me when I'm angry. Because I always back up my rage with facts and documented sources."

The Credible Hulk.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jobo
post Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 22:55
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,506
Joined: 9 Jan 2008
From: manchester
Member No.: 16,521



so you have miraculously found what the definition of a place of safety is have you ? care to share ?

suppose the workshop was in an earthquake zone, would that make a difference

nb the statute NOTHING about recovery, you just reading that in to it

This post has been edited by jobo: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 - 22:58


--------------------
jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Mon, 24 Oct 2011 - 06:20
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,195
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



It does raise an important point though that either all those small cars on A-frames on the back of motorhomes are illegal or they are not.......

I think in the OP's case the place of safety argument will be hard, what was unsafe about where it was prior to when he set off would be the logical question, otherwise you could use that argument to tow anything anywhere!

Simon

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 - 06:21


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Atomic Tomato
post Mon, 24 Oct 2011 - 06:49
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,209
Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Member No.: 6,356



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 24 Oct 2011 - 07:20) *
It does raise an important point though that either all those small cars on A-frames on the back of motorhomes are illegal or they are not.......


When I was caravaning this summer (what summer!) the motorhome next to me had an A Class towed behind it, the towing frame seemed to have a mechanism for operating the Mercedes brakes via a cable through the grill. Not sure if it operated all 4 brakes though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
sgtdixie
post Mon, 24 Oct 2011 - 07:22
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,529
Joined: 5 May 2011
From: UK
Member No.: 46,399



It appears that by declining the fpn before taking advice you may end up with a much higher penalty.
As has been said your 'car' was in fact a trailer as you have agreed. The braking requirements for trailers are based on plated or MGVW. It does not matter what the actual weight is the regs only relate to plated weight.

You may try the bdv argument claiming recovery but the fact is you appear to have been transporting it in a partially dismantled state to a scrap yard.

There is no prohibition on recovering such a vehicle on a motorway.

I cannot see a viable defence.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

11 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 11:42
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here