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Parking charges on the beach
popsaw191
post Sat, 6 Aug 2011 - 20:07
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Morfa Bychan beach in Wales (owned by Gwynedd Council) is charging £4 (up from £1 last year) to park cars on the beach. The beach is an area of public right of way, regardless of ownership so my question is, are these charges enforcable? the lack of signage at the payment hut or anywhere else leads me to believe they are merely asking for the money, hoping people will pay without fuss, yet are not able to legally demand or enforce payment. Am I correct?
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post Sat, 6 Aug 2011 - 20:07
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bama
post Sat, 6 Aug 2011 - 20:14
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Check the Traffic Regulation Order (aka TRO)

got any pics of the signs at the beach ? they could be informative.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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popsaw191
post Sat, 6 Aug 2011 - 20:27
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I do not know how to check a traffic order.
There was no signage regarding parking but I have a google maps picture of the beach entrance with the payment hut on the right hand side.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 09:10
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Why shouldn't they charge what they want? If it's private land then it can be operated as a parking place for vehicles, planning consent permitting.

You're assuming it's a designated, and therefore regulated, car park. But is it? Pl find out its status (try the council's web site or phone them) and if it's a designated car park then come back with the traffic order mentioned before which designates it.

I really doubt it's a designated car park, it looks just like a private area of land that might even be operated under licence by a car park operator.

Forget car park regs until you know it's a designated car park.

HCA
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popsaw191
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 09:28
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@Hcanderson.
I am not contesting anyones right to charge just as I do not contest Tesco right to charge if you stay over time in their car parks. However, I also have the right to refuse to pay and they cannot enforce.
I am questioning the enforcibility of the charges/fines etc of tthe beach parking. The area I am referring to is not private land but an actual public beach, not a designated car Park. The beach is owned by the council but with public roaming rights.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 10:16
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You appear to know more than you posted first of all.

I don't know what you mean by "public", it has several meanings. For example, the govt. published data earlier this week regarding authorities' capital assets which include the freeholds of pubs and a branch of Primark. So they're "public" property - but you have no right of access.
Merton council owns tranches of Wimbledon Common on which there are 2 golf courses with PRWs running through them - the walkers and golfers have to co-exist.

So what really is your issue and has it anything to do with regulated car parking or is it an issue of rights of way/use of assets?

Start at the beginning please.

HCA

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 10:17
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popsaw191
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 15:19
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I have made clear from post post 1 line 2 that my question is regarding the enforcibility of the charges. Whether they are statutory regulations enforcable by punitive charges or whether they are merely contractual and not subject to punitive charges. I am interested as to the outcome for a person that parkes on the beach without paying the charge.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 15:24
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And how would anyone know without you finding out the status of the land and the basis on which it's being operated? We can't fill in the gaps, we need to be briefed fully. In the interim with the info at our disposal the answer is - it depends.

HCA
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clark_kent
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 15:27
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Isn't ALL on street paid for parking on 'public rights of way'? A right of way is just that I'm sure they are not charging people to cross the car park only for parking which is not a 'public right' on any highway.
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popsaw191
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 15:54
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:24) *
And how would anyone know without you finding out the status of the land and the basis on which it's being operated? We can't fill in the gaps, we need to be briefed fully. In the interim with the info at our disposal the answer is - it depends.

HCA


I have already stated the land status (public beach under council ownership with publi roaming rights). Which gaps are you referring to? What does it depend on?

QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:27) *
Isn't ALL on street paid for parking on 'public rights of way'? A right of way is just that I'm sure they are not charging people to cross the car park only for parking which is not a 'public right' on any highway.


My question is regarding the enforcibility of the parking charges and not a definition of 'roaming rights'. Some parking charges are enforcable, some are not. I suspect these charges are not but I seek confirmation either way.
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clark_kent
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:03
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QUOTE (popsaw191 @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:54) *
My question is regarding the enforcibility of the parking charges and not a definition of 'roaming rights'. Some parking charges are enforcable, some are not. I suspect these charges are not but I seek confirmation either way.



How is anyone here going to know unless by pure chance they have the off street parking places order?
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Norm de Plume
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:06
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Any land can have a right of way (i.e. a right to go backwards and forwards) over it, but that does not include a right to park on it.
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popsaw191
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 17:35
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QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 17:03) *
QUOTE (popsaw191 @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 16:54) *
My question is regarding the enforcibility of the parking charges and not a definition of 'roaming rights'. Some parking charges are enforcable, some are not. I suspect these charges are not but I seek confirmation either way.



How is anyone here going to know unless by pure chance they have the off street parking places order?


Are you saying that such an order is possible to obtain for a public beach and that in order to answer the question of enforcibility, I would need the details of such an order? If that is the case, I am in the wrong place since being in possession of such an order I would already know the answer to the question of enforcibility (whether the parking is statutory or contractual).
I thought that by coming on here, somebody may have experience/knowledge of beach parking and associated charges and enforcibility, that my apply in a generic sense to other council owned beaches.

QUOTE (Norm de Plume @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 17:06) *
Any land can have a right of way (i.e. a right to go backwards and forwards) over it, but that does not include a right to park on it.


This particular beach has parking rights as granted by the Council. This is not in question. I am seeking information as to the enforcibilty of any parking charges and associated fines.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 17:47
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QUOTE (popsaw191 @ Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 18:35) *
This particular beach has parking rights as granted by the Council.


If the council is granting a licence to park then they can charge for it. If the charges to park are just that (i.e. not penalties dressed up as charges) then they are fully enforceable as a matter of contract, all else being equal.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Aug 2011 - 18:07
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Ownership is irrelevant.

If it is a car park designated as such under the provisions of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 then the council may charge for and impose conditions regarding its use. Failure to comply with the provisions of a traffic order is an offence which may be enforced by the authority. However, if the area is simply a piece of land on which the landowner (in this case the council) permits parking subject to the payment of a charge then failure to pay could make that person a trespasser.

There might be a public right of way on foot, but that's hardly relevant if you intend to leave a car, is it?

And if you want to argue that a traffic order is invalid, then it's High Court for you.


HCA
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popsaw191
post Wed, 17 Aug 2011 - 21:49
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Here is the reply i received from the council. It seems to me that the charges are not enforcable.


Dear Sir,

Thank you for your e-mail dated the 17th August 2011 that was submitted through the Council’s Web Site.


I note your concern and observation that we have not yet responded to your e-mail dated the 13th August 2011 regarding the charges for access onto the beach at Morfa Bychan.



Your original e-mail, as aforementioned, was submitted through the Council’s Web Site on Saturday the 13th August 2011 at 17.37. I must clarify that the Council Offices are open, in general, Monday to Friday. Your e-mail therefore would not have been available to officers until Monday the 15th August 2011 which is two clear working days that would have been available to reply.



I regret that there are times when due to a significant number of enquiries we are unable to respond immediately to general enquiries. The Council’s expectation is that a response has been provided within ten working days if possible.



For information and for ease of reference, I attach a copy of a further enquiry previously submitted by you through the Council’s Web Site on Saturday the 6th August 2011 to which I duly responded on Monday the 8th August 2011.



As detailed in my reply to your enquiry dated the 6th August 2011, I confirmed that the officer working at the beach entrance to Morfa Bychan during your visit to the beach on the 6th August 2011 was acting on behalf of the Council and was a member of staff within the Maritime and Country Parks Unit.



The officer is employed to assist with the management of the beach and to duly ensure that vehicles entering the beach pay the daily entrance fee of £4.00. The Officer(s) are located at each of the beach entrances and are duty bound to demand a fee of £4.00 which is our standard charge for vehicular access onto the beach. Other charges apply for the launching of boats.



The Council is empowered to charge this entry fee under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act and such charges for vehicular access and boat launching on this site and similar sites have been collected for a considerable period of time. The vehicle entrance fee charge at Morfa Bychan does not form part of the general Parking Charges that apply to Pay and Display car parks.



Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further assistance.



Yours sincerely,



Barry Davies



Barry Davies

Swyddog Morwrol a Pharciau Gwledig

Maritime and Country Parks Officer

01758 704066

07831 212264
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bama
post Wed, 17 Aug 2011 - 22:01
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under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act

the ? ? ?
theres a bunch of them
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/all?title=Lo...ons%29%20Act%20


get them to state which one and which enabling section within it they rely upon.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 18 Aug 2011 - 09:43
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How can you conclude that they can't charge?

They've told you that this area is NOT a car park regulated under an order made under the Road Traffic Reg Act. It's land.

And even if it's not the Misc Provisions Act, it could equally be one of a range of Local Govt. Acts. So what if they've made a mistake in their letter, where does this take you? This is not a "parking" matter, it's a land use matter with associated issues of the right to make charges, how and by whom these may be set and whether their level/scope are circumscribed and if so in what way?

One thing the council cannot do is to permit vehicles to park on a public right of way on foot only or bridleway as that would not be lawful.

But you started off by saying that your concern was charges. I didn't and still don't think that's your fundamental issue but as you've chosen not to divluge what this is, we're none the wiser.

HCA

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popsaw191
post Thu, 18 Aug 2011 - 12:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 18 Aug 2011 - 10:43) *
How can you conclude that they can't charge?



But you started off by saying that your concern was charges. I didn't and still don't think that's your fundamental issue but as you've chosen not to divluge what this is, we're none the wiser.

HCA


Thanks for the reply. I have not questioned their right to charge which I do not contest. It is the enforcibility and terms. Since no ticket is issued for the parking and no terms are displayed, I cannot see how any charges or subsequent fines enforced.
You said..." But you started off by saying that your concern was charges."
Actually, this is a quote from my first post...
"my question is, are these charges enforcable?"
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popsaw191
post Thu, 18 Aug 2011 - 14:14
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 17 Aug 2011 - 23:01) *
under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act

the ? ? ?
theres a bunch of them
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/all?title=Lo...ons%29%20Act%20


get them to state which one and which enabling section within it they rely upon.


I have done as you suggested and will post the reply when (if) it comes.
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