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Advice? dangerous use of a motor vehicle
Gray
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 19:53
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Hi folks, been looking for a site to get some advice and this seems to be the best one smile.gif

I was stopped in my escort van at Shap on the M6 last thursday night at 12.15 am. The officer told me he had stopped the van for a routine check as "these sort of vans are used for allsorts" fair enough I thought and let him carry on. He knew from my name the van wasnt registered to me but to one my friends although it is insured by me and was fully legal. He then asked me to rotate the steering and checked my tyres which were fine.
This is when it gets complicated.....
He asked what was in the van, I explained my other half is undergoing chemotherapy at the moment and she was asleep in the back (airbed and quilts) and that she was very unwell, no excuse i know but perfectly true, I opened the rear doors, he shone his torch in to check on her and seemed satisfied I was telling the truth then asked me to accompany me to his car. After I got the lecture about the obvious dangers (which in hindsight I completely accept) he gave me a ticket for dangerous use and a 7 day producer. Then he said he wanted to search the van as he had smelt cannabis. My good humour was weaning by now as I dont smoke it and no-one has ever smoked it in that van, i protested and he seemed to think he was sure so I told him he would find morphine and several cancer drugs in the van, all prescribed but if he was going to get my other half (given her condition) out of the van and make her stand in the rain on the hardshoulder while he searched the van then he had better be sure he found something as I would make a complaint. This seemed to satisfy him and he decided not to bother so he then escorted me to a slip road and told me to sort it out before continuing.
Today I went into the police station with my documents, I couldnt find my licence so took my mot and insurance documents in. the girl behind the desk explained I would get a summons etc but to order a new licence from the dvla and when it came they would sort it out. She then went into the backroom to sort the paperwork out and came back out to tell me the registration number on my documents didnt match my ticket, we went outside and she verified my reg and that the motorway police had recorded the registration down wrong. she made note of this and that was that.
I have since been told this may be unenforcable for this reason and I was hoping one of the knowledgable here could shed some light on it?

Thanks for reading
Gray
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post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 19:53
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mrh3369
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:01
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What does it say on the ticket?

This post has been edited by mrh3369: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:03


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mickR
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:04
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maybe the ticket for "dangerous use" ?

oh mrh you beat me to it tongue.gif

This post has been edited by mickR: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:05
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roadrunner 163
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:07
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I assume you were given a CoFPN but regardless the answer is yes it is enforceable. The myth that a mistake on the ticket invalidates it is just that and minor errors (even reg numbers and car types) can be corrected very easily if the case was contested and went to court. Better you take the ticket than try your luck in court assuming you accept the facts you describe.


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Gray
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:07
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It was a yellow ticket with my details and the vehicle details on it (with the wrong reg) and some boxes ticked to say which documents I had to produce within seven days.
It also had dangerous use of a motor vehicle on it.
The girl in the police station kept that one but gave me another form today that mentions i hadnt been able to produce my licence and that the recorded reg number of the van was wrong, I'll run out and get it (its in my glovebox) smile.gif
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:13
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go back to the beginning, there isnt( as far as i know) an offense of dangerous use, sounds like section 40 carring passengers in a dangerous position and or a C&U of carrying passengers with out a seat

have you been given a FPN ?

I wonder If the dispensation that the van was being used as an ambulance might apply, SP ???


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Gray
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:16
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It says the offence is an FPT?
I dont know much about these things so have no idea what that means lol
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:20
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allowing that you cant accept the FPN coz of you not having your DL, though you can if there arnt complications get one in 24 hours, it will end up with a summons where the charge will be spelt out in detail, then we will know more


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jobo

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Gray
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:24
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Ive got onto the DVLA about my licence so its just a wait now for the summons then?

Thanks for all the replies so far, I never expected such a fast response

Gray
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:28
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we are good at fast, its finding a good defence for you thats difficult, i have in the back of my mind you can claim dispensation to some traffic laws if the vehicle is being used as an ambulance, and thats all i can think off as a way out,

others will say if they think this is a daft idea or not


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jobo

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uk_mike
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:38
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There are no ambulance emptions that apply to the offence of using a motor vehicle whilst carrying passengers or a load in a manner likely to cause danger (which I assume is the allegation here).

In any case those ambulance exemptions that do exist only apply to vehicles adapted to be used as ambulances.
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:39
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QUOTE (uk_mike @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:38) *
There are no ambulance emptions that apply to the offence of using a motor vehicle whilst carrying passengers or a load in a manner likely to cause danger (which I assume is the allegation here).

In any case those ambulance exemptions that do exist only apply to vehicles adapted to be used as ambulances.


so how do ambulances get away with having people lying down then ?

adapted how ? you mean putting a bed in the back ? a bit like the OP

and no they dont an ambulance is defined by its use not its design

This post has been edited by jobo: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:41


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jobo

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uk_mike
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:45
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QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:28) *
so how do ambulances get away with having people lying down then ?


Because the vehicle has been specifically adapted to carry passengers in that manner. The stretcher is is clamped to mountings provided for that purpose, and the passenger is strapped into the stretcher (with straps that comply with the seat belt rules).

There is very little risk of a patient being flung about the inside of an ambulance like a rag doll in the event of an collision, unless that collision is very severe. This is in sharp contrast to the fate that someone lying unrestrained on the floor of a van designed to carry goods would suffer (no offence to the OP!).


This post has been edited by uk_mike: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:46
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captain swoop
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:46
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Someone having a kip on a matress in the back of a van isn't an ambulance. If it was on the way to a hospital and life or death then maybe.
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 20:49
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:46) *
Someone having a kip on a matress in the back of a van isn't an ambulance. If it was on the way to a hospital and life or death then maybe.


do you know what the definition of ambulance is, look up ambulant

QUOTE (uk_mike @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:45) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:28) *
so how do ambulances get away with having people lying down then ?


Because the vehicle has been specifically adapted to carry passengers in that manner. The stretcher is is clamped to mountings provided for that purpose, and the passenger is strapped into the stretcher (with straps that comply with the seat belt rules).

There is very little risk of a patient being flung about the inside of an ambulance like a rag doll in the event of an collision, unless that collision is very severe. This is in sharp contrast to the fate that someone lying unrestrained on the floor of a van designed to carry goods would suffer (no offence to the OP!).



and where have you got this from ?


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jobo

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mickR
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:04
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QUOTE (captain swoop @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:46) *
Someone having a kip on a matress in the back of a van isn't an ambulance. If it was on the way to a hospital and life or death then maybe.


and the ambulance that ferries old dears around at 20mph?

QUOTE
There is very little risk of a patient being flung about the inside of an ambulance like a rag doll in the event of an collision, unless that collision is very severe. This is in sharp contrast to the fate that someone lying unrestrained on the floor of a van designed to carry goods would suffer (no offence to the OP!).




or a bus with no seat belts? would they not get flung around in an accident?

This post has been edited by mickR: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:05
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uk_mike
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:04
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QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:49) *
and where have you got this from ?


Which bit? The adaptations inside the back of an ambulance? Well I have been in quite a few, thankfully in a position where I have been able to observe such things.

Or the results of being in a collision whilst unrestrained in the back of a van? As someone who spends much of my working life analysing collision reports - I have seen photographs of a few... The results are not very nice.

But this does not help the OP, so back on topic.

For the offence of dangerous use there is no menu of what is right or wrong - the individual circumstances of each allegation is considered. The test would be was the manner in which the passenger was carried in this particular case such that it was likely to be dangerous? In terms of carrying passengers the court would, in making it's decision consider if the vehicle was designed or adapted to carry passengers in the manner in question.

This post has been edited by uk_mike: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:05
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jobo
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:08
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QUOTE (uk_mike @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 22:04) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:49) *
and where have you got this from ?


Which bit? The adaptations inside the back of an ambulance? Well I have been in quite a few, thankfully in a position where I have been able to observe such things.

Or the results of being in a collision whilst unrestrained in the back of a van? As someone who spends much of my working life analysing collision reports - I have seen photographs of a few... The results are not very nice.

But this does not help the OP, so back on topic.

For the offence of dangerous use there is no menu of what is right or wrong - the individual circumstances of each allegation is considered. The test would be was the manner in which the passenger was carried in this particular case such that it was likely to be dangerous? In terms of carrying passengers the court would, in making it's decision consider if the vehicle was designed or adapted to carry passengers in the manner in question.


No the bit about that being the criteria for safe use of an ambulance,, where the law your quoting


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jobo

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lowie
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:20
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My first post, so hello all.
the OP also said "The officer told me he had stopped the van for a routine check as "these sort of vans are used for allsorts"
Do the police not need a reason for pulling one over now?
Just for driving an escort van seems a little silly to me.
They'll be shooting people for having a rucksack on next! rolleyes.gif
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uk_mike
post Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:20
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QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 22:08) *
No the bit about that being the criteria for safe use of an ambulance,, where the law your quoting


I am not quoting any law. I am expressing the opinion that carrying a passenger laying on a stretcher in a vehicle specifically designed to carry passengers in that matter would not constitute carrying them in a manner that is likely to cause danger, contrary to Regulation 100(1) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.

There regulation can be found here. I would draw your attention to absence of any mention of any exemption for an ambulance, but also the the lack of any mention of any requirement that the passengers be seated.

This post has been edited by uk_mike: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 - 21:21
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