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PCN - Deprived of opportunity to go to tribunal, Threads merged
lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 14:55
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I'll try and keep my story as brief as possible - please let me know if there are any other details you need.


I was issued with a PCN in Reading in June 2010. I know for a fact it was incorrectly issued. It was alleged that I was parked in a permit only space without a valid permit, however my car was parked next to a sign stating, "2 hours, no return within 2 hours.". I went through all the steps of appeal, up to the point where I made a formal representation to the Notice to Owner, and requesting my case be heard at Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Next thing I got a Charge Certificate. I called to ask why I hadn't been given the opportunity of a Tribunal and was told the Council couldn't find my representation.

I made a formal complaint to the council and was told not to worry, I could just fill in the TE9 witness statement when it arrived and state I made representation but never had a rejection notice. The person on the phone told me to fill in the form and return it to them using the envelope provided.

As soon as I received the TE9 I completed it and returned it, in the envelope that was provided with it.

I called the council today to be told they had received my TE9 form in plenty of time but that I'd sent it to the wrong place - I should have sent it to Northampton and not returned it in the envelope they provided me with. I asked if they could forward it to Northampton or whether I had enough time to submit a new form to Northampton and they advised it was 'tough luck' and laughed at me.

I'm at my wits end here. I know for a fact that I should never have been issued with a PCN in the first place and all I want is for my case to be heard at Tribunal so I can prove it.

Please help me - what can I do as the council have outright refused to help me any further.
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post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 14:55
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Neil B
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 15:15
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It's hard to advise fully when you have only given a start point. No dates for the subsequent events.

There is nothing to stop you making the Witness Statement but we need to know if you are in time or out of time (both are possible).

Dates please and then you will be contacting TEC urgently for the appropriate forms.

Clearly misleading of the Council to enclose that envelope.

---------------
Pls answer quickly - you are at risk of bailiff action.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 15:44
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Hi thanks for your reply. I don't know all the dates unfortunately but here are those I know:

PCN issued 8 June 2010
Charge Certificate 19 October 2010
Northampton informed of TE9 being issued by the council 27 Jan 2011
I received TE9 2 Feb 2011
I posted back TE9 in the envelope on 2 Feb 2011

Today so far:
Council confirmed by phone they received TE9 on 4 Feb 2011 but advised they don't have to do anything with it because I shouldn't have sent it to them
I asked council what the deadline on the TE9 was for my particular case but the woman refused to tell me, said they had a standard of 21 days but wouldn't tell me from when
I spoke to Northampton and they advised to send another TE9 but it might be too late
Sent copy of TE9 by email to Northampton
Council continue to refuse to tell me if I'm too late or not





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DancingDad
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 15:58
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Okay
It is not down to council to say whether too late or not...it is decision of TEC.

Have you ever received an Order for Recovery ??
And if so, what date ??

At this moment, that seems to be the one bit of the jigsaw outstanding ?
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lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 16:02
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I think it was an Order for Recovery I received on 2 Feb 2011 in the same envelope as the TE9 form. Unfortunately I can't find it to confirm that's what it was called.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 16:07
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QUOTE (lollipop11 @ Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 16:02) *
I think it was an Order for Recovery I received on 2 Feb 2011 in the same envelope as the TE9 form. Unfortunately I can't find it to confirm that's what it was called.


Okay, that may put you into Out of Time but there is a theory that TEC accept any TE9s without an out of time application and as there could be a dispute with councils on Out of Time, reject all if an out of time is sent.

2 things to do
Phone TEC and ask if accepted ...may be tomorrow but they can work quickly...don't explain or mention out of time, just ask if accepted.
Download TE7 form from TEC website, Out of Time and fill itin ready just in case. Reason for out of time, sent by error to council and having to re submit.
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lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 16:21
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Ok thanks. I have already explained to the TEC that the form might be late but he said to send the TE9 anyway. I emailed them the TE9 with a letter explaining what had happened - sounds like I probably should have just sent the TE9. Doh!
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Neil B
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 16:31
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Ok - apart from the letter bit.

You have to keep those simple. Just tick the box and one sentence at most, if any.

Contact them again now to see if it has been received and is being processed.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 17:53
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As a warning to others - do not contact councils by phone unless you get names, make notes and confirm by letter/email; the phone is the devil's instrument.

So confirm today's exchange, in the final event it all counts - councils have a duty to act fairly.


HCA
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lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 18:41
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I had been doing everything in writing but I called to check they'd received my paperwork as they'd already lost my formal representation - and told me it was my own fault I had missed a chance of Tribunal because I hadn't checked whether they'd received it! I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the TEC accepts my TE9. I'll check with them tomorrow if it's been processed. I'm just so angry it's gotten to this stage when I did everything else correctly - I even have a copy of the letter I sent with my formal representation and have offered to show them my computer so they can see the day it was saved on.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 18:50
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Unfortunately councils are not always fair and evenhanded.
No worries, what they did with the TE9 and during today's phone call is unforgivable but they will get their comeuppance.

At the moment only thing outstanding is whether you've downloaded the Out of Time form from TEC.
That needs to be ready to go if they reject TE9

What happens if an Out of Time is submitted is TEC can reject (and often do) so next step is to send an N244 (download it in advance, just in case).
This is an application for a District Judge to decide on the Out of Time and there is a submission fee..£40 for a written decision, £75 for a personal hearing...but costs can be claimed back on approval. N244s are rarely refused and never with a good reason, which yours is.

Once this thing is reset (by TE9 etc) council have option of cancelling or sending straight to adjudicators so you will get your day in court.
We'll deal with setting you up for adjudication once thing is reset.
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lollipop11
post Thu, 24 Feb 2011 - 19:31
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I'll download those forms shortly then. Thanks ever so much for your help. I just can't believe how far this has gone - especially when the council's own photographic evidence shows the sign I was parked next to stating 2 hours. I'll be in touch tomorrow to let you know what happens when I speak to the TEC.

Thanks again. smile.gif
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lollipop11
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 13:26
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Hello! I called the TEC today and apparently the additional charges have been cancelled and the ticket referred back to the Council. What do I do now? I don't want to wait for the council to respond if possible as they've been utterly useless so far. Thanks for your help in getting me this far. I really appreciate it.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 13:38
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Excellent news.
You now need to be proactive..and do absolutely nothing until the council decide what they are going to do.
Don't phone them
Don't email them
Don't write to them.
The ball is in their court and they must do something. Until they do, don't contact.

What we can do is help with making sure your challenges on the ticket are as strong as they can be for the adjudicator should Reading decide not to cancel.

If you can post the PCN, NTO and any other correspondance we can take a look.
What date did you send your formal challenge and any proof of posting ???

Question for experts..... I think the 56 day rule still applies... does it in a case like this ??
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lollipop11
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 13:45
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I'll dig everything I can find out this weekend and post it. Unfortunately it was back in June 2010 and my husband has OCD shredding/throwing away paperwork so I don't have everything. I'll find everything I can and post it though and will list the arguments I was going to go for. Any views/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

What's the 56 day rule?

Thanks again. I thought I knew a thing or two about PCN's - I've had to take on my local council a few times now for myself and friends (and never because I've actually parked where I shouldn't - one case where my friend got a ticket despite displaying a valid resident's permit!) but this one has gone way further than ever before.

Oh yes, one more thing. I did complain to my local councillor and they yesterday forwarded my complaint to the CEO of the council and the Lead Councillor for Transport - mostly about the way things have been handled, the way I've been spoken to and the fact I was denied a chance of tribunal. Will this be a disadvantage? I'm worried that some jobsworth won't appreciate me telling tales on them and will dig their heels in to make things more difficult for me.
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Neil B
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 13:45
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 13:38) *
Question for experts..... I think the 56 day rule still applies... does it in a case like this ??


There aren't any, will I do?

Without looking it up I think this will be a referral to TPT if Reading so choose. That TEC decision should be coming in writing? - so we will know.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 14:09
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Yeah, you'll do Neil.

What I'm thinking is that OP sent formal reps into council and got a CC in return (which is an absolute PI in itself and should be enough to win at tribunal).
Once formal reps go in council have 56 days to reply or they are taken to be accepted and PCN cancelled.
Does the clock keep ticking even though there has been this slight diversion or is it somehow reset ???

Point is Lollipop, if they do nothing, you win anyway.... I'm just wondering what date we can set for the party. laugh.gif
As I said earlier and Neil refers to, in a case like this when TEC reset things, council have two options.
Cancel the PCN
Refer direct to adjudicators who then decide whether to hear an appeal or cancel anyway (which they can in this case IMO)
If they take the third option of doing nothing, fine, you win by default.

Letters to councillors etc won't do any harm and may do some good but anything that wakes council up to take action means ball ends back in your court and you have to play it.... personally I'd let sleeping dogs lie until safe...then fire off all the complaints possible.
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lollipop11
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 14:26
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Ok thanks for the advice. I won't pursue the complaint any further for now. My main concern is that the council have repeatedly 'posted' me items that have never arrived and then I've ended up in trouble for not responding. Conversely, they conveniently 'lost' my formal representation so I'm concerned if I don't follow up to see what's happening, I'll suddenly find myself with another Order for Recovery or bailiffs knocking on the door.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 14:45
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Get another OFR you know exactly what to do with it.
And if Bailiifs arrive you wave a copy of the letter that you will be getting from TEC under their nose and give them 30 seconds to get off your property while you are phoning the police.
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Neil B
post Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 14:51
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QUOTE (lollipop11 @ Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 14:26) *
Ok thanks for the advice. I won't pursue the complaint any further for now. My main concern is that the council have repeatedly 'posted' me items that have never arrived and then I've ended up in trouble for not responding. Conversely, they conveniently 'lost' my formal representation so I'm concerned if I don't follow up to see what's happening, I'll suddenly find myself with another Order for Recovery or bailiffs knocking on the door.


You might well, LOL. We have a Liverpool case doing just that - circling! BUT - it would be wrong and relatively easy to deal with - and add weight to your case.

I can't find an answer to DD's 56 day question. As far as I understand Reading don't have your reps so the adjudicator would contact you to ask for them IF reading refer it there.

In terms of a timescale in which they must refer to TPT - can't find one at mo. In any case they would have to act in a reasonable time - adjudication on that suggests 2-3 months.
Doesn't help much cos you want it done and dusted - but the system does have these flaws.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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