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[NIP Wizard] Summons Southern Irish licence
Roo2010
post Thu, 3 Jun 2010 - 19:09
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2010
Date of the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 0 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M6 Toll Northbound T3-T4
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Owner
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I join the M6 toll & some cars overtook me at speed. I continued flowing with traffic in the middle lane which were moving at about 80mph. Along my way some cars pulled in frony of me & seemed to slow down. After a while I overtook & again joined the traffic in land 2 @ 80mph. The same thing happened again & I overtook 2 cars 1 of which was a navy 5 series BMW (unmark) during this period I was unaware that my speed had increased to 90mph. I noticed the BWM followed me not to far behind for 1.4 miles. I became suspicous & slowed down at this point & moved to lane 2 & immediately was pulled over. I was told I was doing 92.8mph average over 1.4miles. I appologised & they give me an NIP as I have a Southern Irish licence & said they couldn't give me penaly points & may receive a summons. I received a summons last week post marked 25/5/10. It says I can plead guilty by post, guilty in court or not guilty at court. I was going to plead guilty by post as I don't think I have any grounds for not guilty. Please can someone advise whats the best course of action? I don't know anyone who has had similar with Irish licence? If I do plead guilty by post whats the likely outcome? Also I believe I have to fill out statement of financial circumstances which seems abit deep. Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 19:09:47 +0000
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post Thu, 3 Jun 2010 - 19:09
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southpaw82
post Thu, 3 Jun 2010 - 19:43
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You will get points but they'll only exist on a record at the DVLA, not on your Irish licence.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Logician
post Thu, 3 Jun 2010 - 19:55
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I would write to the court pleading guilty and apologising for a momentary lapse. State that the officer said he was unable to give you a fixed penalty notice only because you did not have a UK licence, and say that you understand in the circumstances the court will consider sentence from the starting point of the penalties associated with a fixed penalty notice, so you have therefore not completed the statement of financial circumstances.

You should simply get a £60 fine and 3 points on your driving record at the DVLA that Southpaw refers to, but nothing is certain.


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Roo2010
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 09:08
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Thanks Southpaw & Logician for your info greatly appreciated

Logician should I include this as part of the mitigating circumstances or separate letter altogether. I suppose my fear is I would not wish to make matters worse & would like to draw to a close soonest.

“I write to the court pleading guilty and apologising for a momentary lapse. The officer said she was unable to give you a fixed penalty notice only because you did not have a UK licence, and I understand that in the circumstances the court will consider sentence from the starting point of the penalties associated with a fixed penalty notice, so I therefore have not completed the statement of financial circumstances.”

Do you think they will accept this as it states on the Plea form:
**If you are pleading guilty by post you must also fill in the statement of financial circumstances form and mitigating circumstances section.

Is there any help available in writing mitigating circumstances?

Also theres a bit about including my driving licence does this apply to southern Irish licence or should I just give this as the reason for not including?

Thanks again Roo


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Logician
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 10:39
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Roo, from the court's point of view, they will be dealing with a stack of these, mostly people failing to respond at all, and some writing rambling screeds that are difficult to read, so keep it simple and legible and you have them on your side!
Nothing you have said about the circumstances offers much hope of mitigation, so better to say nothing. Put it all on the mitigation section, not a separate letter, and do not enclose your licence as they cannot do anything with it. I suggest:

I plead guilty to the offence of speeding and apologise for a momentary lapse. The officer said when I was stopped that she was unable to give me a fixed penalty notice only because I do not have a UK licence; I have a licence from the Republic of Ireland. I understand that in the circumstances the court will consider sentence from the starting point of the penalties associated with a fixed penalty notice, so I therefore have not completed the statement of financial circumstances. I have not enclosed my Irish licence, as I understand that points can not be put on it by a UK court, but a UK driving record showing any points will be created by the DVLA.


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Roo2010
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 11:42
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Thanks again Logician

Do you think any of the following are worth mentioning in the Mitigation also:

1) I have been driving for 15 years and never been convicted for speeding before, but exercised restraint evidenced by my clean licence.
2) I use my car everyday for work & have travelled all over the UK.
3) My dad had been taken ill and was in Hospital & my mind may not have been given my driving the concentration that it deserved.
4) This was a sunny dry day with light traffic. - (this is also mentioned in the witness statement) so maybe no need to double up!

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bama
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 11:52
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"3) My dad had been taken ill and was in Hospital & my mind may not have been given my driving the concentration that it deserved."
I don't see how that helps at all
isn't that admitting 'Due Care' ? (especially at the alleged speed).

Is the points on a shadow licence a problem ? why not just give the minimum info (cough to the offence) and let the wheels grind ?


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Roo2010
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 12:24
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Ok Bama I see your point thanks
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Logician
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 13:24
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Roo, the court cannot go any lower than 3 points, and won't go lower than £60, except in quite extraordinary circumstances, so there is really no point in putting in a lot of waffle. What you want then to do is follow their guidelines for circumstances where a fixed penalty cannot be taken up, which for information are available here under "motoring offence" on page 189.

This post has been edited by Logician: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 13:25


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Roo2010
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 14:52
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Logician thanks again for all your help. I suppose I would wish to keep to a minimum & as I'm not familar with the process want to give myself the best chance. No waffle it is. I would settle for 3 points and £60 fine.
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nemo
post Fri, 4 Jun 2010 - 19:27
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Frustrating though it may be, but the matter could have been dealt with by Fixed Penalty, regardless of the fact that the OP does not hold a GB licence.

A point worth making to the court, perhaps ? (politely, of course.. wink.gif )
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Roo2010
post Thu, 24 Jun 2010 - 20:22
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Ok 3 weeks on I've had a letter back after pleading guilty by post mad.gif, please see below. I followed the excellent advise received by fellow members smile.gif. Please can anyone advise what I need to do next. Does this letter mean I need to go to the hearing. I was hoping not to have to travel 170miles plus take a day of work that I can't afford to take off. Or does it mean that I can\should produce a financial statement before this date?

"Notice of new date of hearing
Reasons - The matter has been adjourned because: 1. to produce statement of means.

If the court does not hear from you, or you do not attend the next hearing, the case can proceed against you in your absence
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nemo
post Thu, 24 Jun 2010 - 20:37
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QUOTE (Roo2010 @ Thu, 24 Jun 2010 - 21:22) *
Does this letter mean I need to go to the hearing.

No.

The court has requested that you provide a statement of your means prior to the trial. This will enable the magistrates to determine the amount to fine you (in your absence).

If you fail to provide a statement, the court will be directed to assume a Relevant Weekly Income figure of £350. Note, however, that the court would have the discretion to vary this amount, should information exist which would suggest a significantly higher or lower income.

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Logician
post Thu, 24 Jun 2010 - 22:35
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Since they have asked for a statement of means you had better send it, but I would re-emphasise the point about the fixed penalty in your covering letter as they seem disinclined to follow that route.

Something like:
QUOTE
I enclose a statement of means as requested.
I have subsequently been informed that the police officer who spoke to me at the scene and told me that she would have given me a fixed penalty if I had a UK licence, but could not do so as I had an Irish licence, was misinformed and the mechanism now exists to give fixed penalties to non-UK licence holders, introduced by the Road Safety Act 2006. This offence should therefore have been dealt with by way of a fixed penalty, and I respectfully submit that an equivalent fine and number of points should be given to me.

See Explanatory Notes to Road Safety Act 2006
35. The United Kingdom is obliged in any case to make this change following a complaint made to the European Commission in 2000 by a Dutch licence holder who was resident in the UK but did not possess a counterpart to her Community licence. Having committed a driving offence, she was obliged to be prosecuted in court, which led to her receiving a fine higher than the fixed penalty would have been and the imposition of court costs. She argued that the fixed penalty system was discriminatory against European Community licence holders in general. The Commission upheld the complaint and the Government undertook to make the necessary legislative changes to put an end to the discrimination.


This post has been edited by Logician: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 - 22:36


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Roo2010
post Fri, 2 Jul 2010 - 22:04
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Thanks
Is there a format for the statement of means. What should it include? Is it the same as the financial statement, as ths seemed very detailed.
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Logician
post Fri, 2 Jul 2010 - 22:11
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QUOTE (Roo2010 @ Fri, 2 Jul 2010 - 23:04) *
Thanks
Is there a format for the statement of means. What should it include? Is it the same as the financial statement, as ths seemed very detailed.

Yes, same thing.


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annoyedmotorist1...
post Sat, 3 Jul 2010 - 20:13
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You are eligible for a Fixed Penalty. Have a friend who has an NI licence who it has happened to twice once she had to go to court but second one could accept Fixed Penalty. The DVLA creates a ghost licence from your driving licence number. This has been the case since April 2009. Officer who told you that you have to go to court obviously doesn't know their job. I'd speak with CTO involved if possible or when you go to court advise them of this as is wasting the courts time.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 5 Jul 2010 - 05:44
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AIUI the fixed penalty can only be offered if the driver has a UK counterpart, with camera cases that is not an issue as there is time to apply for and recieve the counterpart in time, not the case for roadside pulls, or has this changed recently?

Simon


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nemo
post Mon, 5 Jul 2010 - 05:54
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 5 Jul 2010 - 06:44) *
..or has this changed recently?

Yes, from 1 April 2009 - Road Safety Act 2006, Sections 8 & 9.
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Roo2010
post Thu, 8 Jul 2010 - 12:12
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Hi Logician,
Why do you recommend sending the statement of means. Is it not as previously mentioned that "the court will be directed to assume a Relevant Weekly Income figure of £350" ?

Also theres an outgoings section on the financial statement e.g mortgage, council tax, bills etc. Do I need to fill this out as theres a bit above it saying "The court may be prepared to allow more time to pay. If you want to ask the court for more time, you will need to provide details and proof of your commitments. The court will consider your request, but not necessarily grant it." My interpretation of this is if I'm asking the court for more time I need to fill this out?

Thanks
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