[NIP Wizard] 3 possible notices in quick succession, New topic started (merged) Options

[Kafkaesque]

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2009
Date of the NIP: - 33 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 34 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A1056 Ipswich Road, Norwich, towards city centre
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I have no recollection of this event - the notice came completely out of the blue. It says I was doing 37mph in a 30mph zone on a Sunday morning. My main concern is that I may have triggered this camera and another one nearby, since, which would take me up to 12 points. I thought that as 14 days had elapsed I was safe, but am worried that because I drive a lease car, this time period is not relevant.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

• The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.
  
  You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:01:15 +0100

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[southpaw82]

I drive a lease car

Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes

Are you guessing at the answer to the last question?

[Pete D]

Correct it is 14 days to the registered keeper which is not you. If the RK gets it in teim then your can be weeks or even months later, usually 2, 3 or 4 weeks later. Pete D

[Kafkaesque]

Well spotted - I am guessing that I am the registered keeper.

Is it worth sending a letter regardless pointing out the lateness of the NIP now or find out first from the lease company if they were informed within 14 days?
Do I still have to reply to the NIP if I send a letter?
Is there some way of finding out if other offences are also pending without incriminating myself?! I can perhaps live with another 3 points but can't afford 9.

[southpaw82]

There seems little point in sending a letter saying the NIP was late when you have absolutely no idea whether it was or not. Even if it was then it does not relieve you of your obligation to name the driver under s. 172.

[Pete D]

You are not the registered keeper, the lease company will be. You may be the keeper and the delay for you to get a NIP is irrelevant. Yes you have to complete the NIP and return it signed within 28 days or risk being charged with failure to furnish and you will receive 6 points and £300 plus fine. Pete D

[Kafkaesque]

ok so I need to reply.
Excuse my ignorance but are you saying that even if they didn't contact the RK in time it would make no difference to me as the driver? Would that not constitute a technical error on their part that invalidated the NIP?

[Pete D]

You still need to reply by day 28 and send it special delivery particularly with the postal strikes/delays. If you subsequently van prove that the RK did not receive the first NIP with 14 days then that is a different matter. Pete D

[Kafkaesque]

Advice please.
I triggered 3 cameras unknowingly in August and September. One was 37mph at 10.30 on a Sunday morning on the A1056 heading into Norwich. The next 2 were both 39mph, 3 minutes apart at the same camera and one further along the road at 4.45am. I took the advice of this forum and sent off the NIP forms within 28 days (sorry, can't find the NIP wizard I filled in some time ago). I already have 3 points on my licence.
I have been sent the offer of a national speed awareness course in lieu of the first offence and 2 conditional offers of 3 points each for the latter two. This would take me up to 9 points.
I feel that these were all relatively trivial offences given the time of day and the speed i was doing on what is a non-residential ring-road and deeply resent being criminalised in this way! On the other hand, I need my car for work (I'm a surgeon and regularly have to travel in to hospital at the drop of a hat for emergencies) Should I decline the offer of the speed awareness course and argue my case in court or swallow my pride and accept the 6 points. My concern is that if I end up with 9 points without a fight, it will only take one more camera in the next 3 years to put me in court anyway.

[New Driver]

If two of the offences were within a few minutes of each other on the same day with no traffic lights between them you might be able to ask for the two offences to be combined into one and accept the speed awareness course for the other. That would put you on 6 points.

[Kafkaesque]

The offences were 3 minutes apart - early hours of the morning - but there is a set of traffic lights and 2 roundabouts between the 2 cameras.
I spoke to the Safety camera enforcement office today to see if something like that might be an option but received a rather rigid and negative response. Who do you ask? The speed awareness course has to be accepted within 14 days so not much time to write letters and get a response.

And would time of day, relatively low speed, same journey, nature of the road be any sort of mitigation?

[glasgow_bhoy]

Take the speed awareness for definate- that will make no diffrence to your points status

Its the other 2 that need serious consideration

[snowy1998]

It may be possible to argue the 2 speed offences 3 minutes apart if it can be proven they were both for the same speeding offence.
You have the times, all you would need to do is get google earth or similar and measure the distance between the two cameras, a quick bit of math will give your average speed which will show if you have a chance of proving they are the same offence.

[New Driver]

So basically if you can show that it is probable that your speed did not drop below the limit between the two cameras you might have a case for one continuous offence. I'd take the peeed awareness course in either case as it will remove one set of points either way !

[Kafkaesque]

So if I took the roundabouts at 39mph it would be 1 offence but if I slowed down for them it would be 2 ?!!
Sounds like it's worth a try. Presumably write to the Camera Enforcement Office or should I trying to speaking to them again?

[snowy1998]

So if I took the roundabouts at 39mph it would be 1 offence but if I slowed down for them it would be 2 ?!!
Sounds like it's worth a try. Presumably write to the Camera Enforcement Office or should I trying to speaking to them again?

so long as you can prove your speed averaged 31mph or more between the two cameras it would be plausable to argue that it was the same offence, what distance is there between the two cameras if you've had chance to check, or do you have the road name location and maybe some kind soul can check for you

[andy_foster]

As others have said, for the first alleged offence it would be prudent to take the speed awareness course. That is the only way to guarantee avoiding the points. Regardless of what you do regarding the other 2 incidents.
Make sure that you book it in time, turn up on time, have your licence with you and any other hoops that they might want you to jump through.

Regarding the other 2 incidents, 3 minutes apart sounds potentially promising for it being the same offence, but if not it would still clearly be part of the same course of driving - potentially fined for both, but only get the points for 1.
If the scamers won't listen to reason, you will have to ignore the COFP and let them take you to court. You can plead by post, but it may well be better to attend in person.

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 - 19:23

[Kafkaesque]

According to google earth it's 1.3 miles - in 3 minutes is 26mph - must have slowed down for those damn roundabouts. But if the first camera got me at 04:44 and 59secs and the second at 04:47 and 1 sec it would be 38mph! Do they record the time down to the last second? Still worth a try?

[southpaw82]

Read what Andy has written above.